Split from Nmonk's sand topic

[nmonks]

Mix the laterite with a relatively fine gravel, and then find something called a "gravel tidy" at your aquarium store. These are used most often by marine aquarists, so one that caters for marines is best; else, buy on-line. Do an inch or two depth of the gravel/laterite, and then an inch or two of sand. The gravel tidy will restrict the movement of the sand downwards. I used this system in another tank years ago, and it seemed to work fine.

I have sand dumped on top of plain old pond compost in another tank, and no mixing seems to occur, even without a gravel tidy.

Cheers,

Neale

I considered a laterite subsubstrate with sand above it. But I was worried about them blending together. Is this a concern and if so how do you deal with it? BTW i play in the sand in my fish tanks. =)

 

[KathyM]

Hi Neale

Sorry to resurrect this thread again with yet more questions for you, but I thought they'd be handier here for others than if I PMed you.

We're setting up a new (6ft) tank next week like we nattered about a while ago, and I'd love to go sand with this one. I'm afraid although many of our questions are answered in this thread, I could really use you confirming things for me, so here goes.

1. Pond soil/gravel/sand vs. just sand.

We're hoping to have a tank setup a bit like yours on the first page of this thread. We'd like the back left corner built up so that the substrate slopes down towards the right front, if you get me. The tank will not be heavily planted, but in that back corner I'm planning amazon swords and vallis. We have some free very fine gravel coming with the tank - would it be best if I mixed this with pond soil to avoid having to use a gravel tidy (we have Malaysian Trumpet Snails and I want to avoid the tidy if poss)? If so, is it sturdy enough alone to build up a slope, or would you recommend siliconing some slate to the bottom of the tank?


2. Bogwood and stones.

I *have* to have bogwood (panaque) but I can live without stones, but I'm asking about both because in an ideal world I'd like that mixture of "textures" in the tank like you said, because it looks more natural. My main concern is that I don't want to leave that back corner bare, so how do I bogwood the tank without it being stood right on the bottom in that deeper corner? Obviously this isn't as much of a problem in the shallower end, but I'm concerned about putting rocks/bogwood in the deep end. Can I build up with anything underneath to elavate it so that it's not sat on the sand, but isn't completely buried *lol*?


3. Fish list.

I'm trying to stick with South/Central American fish (although my friend keeps trying to persuade me to get a small species of spiny eel!). I have so far:

2 juvi angels
2 bolivian rams
5 penguin tetras
7 cories
1 gibby (6")
1 royal panaque (3")
1 baby BN. (1.5")

Considering the huge size of the tank (6ft x 2ft x 2ft), will these keep it turned over for now? Also what fish would you recommend in there to 1) fill the tank out and 2) turn the sand more? I'm hoping to add another plec at some point, and possibly a Rainbow Cichlid (been recommended elsewhere on this board). Anything else I will leave to your discretion *lmao*, but I'm on a budget

I think that's it for now, but I'm overloading with excitement and panic about the whole project as I need to do it as cheaply as possible and as quickly as possible (thankfully FX5 ready cycled coming with the tank).

Thanks

Kathy

ps: Any advice on sifting malaysian trumpet snails out of current gravel for new tank much appreciated!

 

[nmonks]

Hello Kathy,

When designing a tank with a "bank" at one end, you need to fill the bank with as much rock as possible. Sand on its own slips down eventually, especially if you don't have plants. Plants shore up the sand very effectively. Anyway, what you want to do is create the basic shape with rocks, and then use the sand only to fill up the gaps between the rocks.

Some people use slates to build up little walls that hold back the sand. To make it look realistic, think about what a geological exposure of rock would look like. Instead of sticking the rock straight down, slide them in at an angle. Also align the slates so that they look like a geological strata poking through rather than a mish-mash of rocks.

I have found combining bogwood with rocks extremely problematic. Whatever I do, one or other looks out of place. I've found using a single big bit of bogwood works the best, and then only when it is half buried in the sand. I tend to put bogwood on the glass, and then edge it with rocks so it doesn't move about, and then cover it all with sand. That way, it looks like a tree root sticking out of the sand. Simply dumping bogwood on top of a mound of rocks and sand ends up looking like an aquarium instead of a habitat.

As I have a Panaque catfish, the bogwood is mandatory, as it is with you, so I sympathise. All I can say is use it carefully and try out different arrangements before pouring the sand in. One thing that needs to be said is that the needs of the fish must come first; Amano-type aquaria are fine for schooling fish, but hopeless for Panaque catfish which need lots of clean wood to eat and plenty of open space to destroy (sorry, swim through).

Your selection of fish sounds nice. While Panaque catfish don't seem especially territorial (mine lived with an Ancistrus for 7 years) I'd watch the gibbiceps. The only thing I'd suggest is something for the top level of the tank, such as hatchetfish or halfbeaks. The top of the tank is often neglected, but by making it busy, the fish lower down the aquarium will feel more secure and swim about more.

As for big cichlids, I kept some chocolate/emerald cichlids for a few years and they were very nice. Unusual colours and a nice personality. You might also consider a school of South American puffers; they're very active, and mine at least largely ignore tetras and big catfish (they did nip Corydoras though). A horseface loach or two might be a very good addition. They're great fun in sandy tanks, and will also do a lot to prevent the risk of anaerobic decay.

Hope this helps,

Neale

 

[KathyM]

Hi Neale

Thank you so much - that was really very helpful. We still haven't made the decision over whether to do said instead of the very fine gravel that's coming with the tank, but if we take the plunge at least we know what to do now, and most of that advice is good for even if we stick with the gravel.

I'll look into the selection of fish you talked about - they all sound very interesting. I do love the chocolate cichlids but didn't think they'd be a suitable addition with what we already have (fantastic if they are!).

We're lucky enough to have the wussiest gibby on the planet. He does get a bit huffy over "his" bogwood rocket, but not so much that the other two don't still share it with him (despite there being more hiding places and bogwood in the tank!).

Again thank you so much,

Kathy
xx

And back again - what am I like, forgot to ask the two questions I wanted to re: sand.

1/ How do you get around vaccing after a panaque Neale, do you find you lose a fair bit of sand after time considering the frequent cleaning?

2/ I've been warned not to use sand because apparently it'll knacker the filter (FX5). Can anyone share their experience of that with me?

Sorry if these questions are really stupid, just want to make a well balanced and informed decision, because it'll be a bugger to change once it's done!

 

[nmonks]

Kathy --

The poop from a Panaque is either wood or vegetables; either way, it just sits on the sand and is easy to siphon up. My Panaque is ~15 cm long, and I need to clean out the poop once every day or two. Some sand does get siphoned up with it, but I don't find the sand otherwise makes a mess. If you're frightened the aquarium will go cloudy each time you clean it out, well, it won't. The silt, which makes the water cloudy, is different from the sand, and usually the silt is all gone after a few days of filtration.

So far as I can tell, little if any sand ever ends up in the filter. Potentially it could I suppose, but it doesn't seem to. More of a risk is scratching the glass. Be careful when cleaning not to drag grains of sand up the glass. Panaques (and other plecs I'd imagine) do throw a bit of sand about when rooting about, but not with enough force to scratch the glass.

Cheers,

Neale

1/ How do you get around vaccing after a panaque Neale, do you find you lose a fair bit of sand after time considering the frequent cleaning?

2/ I've been warned not to use sand because apparently it'll knacker the filter (FX5). Can anyone share their experience of that with me?

 

[BigIan]

i`ve had sand running with my external now since i set the tank up, and no issues just make sure the inlet is well above the substate (mines about 6 inches above the sand)

do you have some MTS? if not do you want some??? as they help stir up the sand...

also a school of corys may go down well in your tank and also help to hoover up any food left on the bottom of the tank.

 

[KathyM]

Thanks both of you! You've been fantastic.

Ian - yeah I have MTS - how many I don't know. I got one with the penguin tetras as an escapee from the fish shop, didn't ever see it. So I bought more off eBay last month (15) and have only seen one of them. Have no idea how I'm going to save them all from the old gravel - that'll be a job and a half! I might have to pester you for some more if there aren't a vast amount *mwahahaha*.

Neale - are you sure Chocolate Cichlids will be okay with the fish we have? Sorry, don't mean to drag it off topic any more than I already have.

Thanks for your help both of you - I can imagine I'll be back on here in a right flap as and when we start setting up.

 

[nmonks]

No, not sure. I'd imagine they would eat the tetras, but they'd be fine with plecs. As for their behaviour with the cichlids... ask around. Possibly not wise. But they're handsome fish, and in a tank your size would look great. Mine were in a 200 gallon system, and they really grabbed the eye. Not many fish are purple, but these are, though they switch colours in the most amazing way.

Cheers,

Neale

Neale - are you sure Chocolate Cichlids will be okay with the fish we have? Sorry, don't mean to drag it off topic any more than I already have.

 

[Fishy412]

so if i put sand in the tank and it gets stirred up and murky will the fish be able to stay in the sandy water until its clear or will i have to wait for the filter to do it

 

[nmonks]

Just to clarify something: sand doesn't make water murky, silt does. When you but sand, it has some silt in it. That's why you wash it. Inevitably, some silt will remain, and that makes the water cloudy for a few days. Water changes and some filter wool get rid of the silt very quickly. Once that's done, the sand will never make the water murky. It doesn't dissolve or turn into new silt.

Silt does fish no harm at all. It's normal. Look at the Thames. Hardly transparent, is it! Freshwater fish are adapted to silty water, and they couldn't care less. Even species that live in otherwise clear waters (like streams) have to put up with silty water during rainstorms, when silt washes in from adjacent land.

Cheers,

Neale

so if i put sand in the tank and it gets stirred up and murky will the fish be able to stay in the sandy water until its clear or will i have to wait for the filter to do it

 

[Scotty87]

nmonks,

How big do the Malayan snails get? Small enough to keep in a 10 G tank?

 

[nmonks]

Usually around 1 cm, possibly bigger, maybe 2 cm at best. In a 10 gallon tank you could keep around a million of them. Seriously, they're not at all demanding. Be careful with overfeeding the fish and remove decaying plant matter so that the population of snails doesn't go beserk. Once in a while, do a snail cull at night (there are various methods and ideas for traps). I find that the population eventually reaches a harmless level at which point there's nothing to worry about.

In a 10 gallon, snails and shrimps, with maybe a few small fish like bettas or small barbs would be very cool and easy to look after.

Cheers,

Neale

How big do the Malayan snails get? Small enough to keep in a 10 G tank?

 

[jayjay]

Can anyone explain how I got the aneorbic pockets after 4days of setting up a tank with sand?

 

[nmonks]

You haven't. That's just regular air. Some seems to get caught in the sand sometimes when you fill the tank with it. It also comes out of the water, especially if there's a dramatic change in temperature (e.g., you fill the tank with cold water and then warm it up). It is harmless and eventually works its way out. You could get a chopstick or something similar and just prod about a bit to speed the evacuation of air. If the tank isn't planted, just give the sand a good stir.

Anaerobic decay takes a while, and produces a very distinctive smell of bad eggs. Trapped air can smell stale, but not eggy. Either way, boosting the aeration of the water will drive off any good/bad gases very quickly. The risk to fish isn't very great. Most ponds have masses of anaerobic decay at the bottom, and it doesn't seem to cause any problems there.

Cheers,

Neale

Can anyone explain how I got the aneorbic pockets after 4days of setting up a tank with sand?

 

[Scotty87]

Usually around 1 cm, possibly bigger, maybe 2 cm at best. In a 10 gallon tank you could keep around a million of them. Seriously, they're not at all demanding. Be careful with overfeeding the fish and remove decaying plant matter so that the population of snails doesn't go beserk. Once in a while, do a snail cull at night (there are various methods and ideas for traps). I find that the population eventually reaches a harmless level at which point there's nothing to worry about.

In a 10 gallon, snails and shrimps, with maybe a few small fish like bettas or small barbs would be very cool and easy to look after.

Cheers,

Neale

I was thinking of some cherry barbs. What kind of Shrimp do you recommend? Haven't seen much information about them on this forum (I may not have looked everywhere yet)

Thanks,
Phil