Some Cycling-with-fish Questions

[rdd1952]

I'll add one thing about trusting LFS employees. Once you feel comfortable about your knowledge of different things, go to the stores near you and ask some questions that you do know the answers to as Tessla suggested. You will get all sorts of answers, most of them just shooting from the hip. Based on the answers you get, you can decide how much you can and want to trust them.

And don't fall into the obvious assumption that true LFS owners/employees know more than the kid ad Petsmart or Petco. Often times they don't or as Tessla also mentioned, they are so set in their ways that they aren't willing to change or offer up-to-date advice such as doing a fishless cycle. In the long run, some of them think it is in their best interest to not give good advice and when your fish die, they get to sell you more along with bacteria starters, cycling aids, pH adjusters, algae removers, etc. And some of the kids at Petsmart may be very knowledgeable. I used to work near a Petsmart and I bought all my fish there because their tanks were cleaner than any of the true LFS near me and the 2 people that worked there (both probably in their late teens) both knew what they were talking about and had been into fishkeeping for several years.

 

[fmxmatt]

Cycle is crap IMO..

Mmm I've never had an issue with it. Could be the fact we're in totally different locations tho. Temperatures here in New Zealand are alot cooler than you people probably experience. That and the water here in Christchurch is aparently one of the purest in the world (no additives) so a number of factors could contribute as to why i've had a real good run from "Cycle"

And yep the comment about the driftwood, I just assumed it had been boiled before it had been put in the water (usually a common practuce)

 

[rdd1952]

It's not so much a matter of Cycle doing any harm. It's more a matter of it not doing any good. I have tried on a couple tanks during fishless cycles and couldn't tell any difference that when I didn't use it. I even tried it once just as an experiment. I did the normal things for a fishless cycle except added the Cycle per the directions. After 10 days, ammonia had not dropped at all and no nitrite. I couldn't understand as generally in 10 days the ammonia would have dropped without any bacteria starter. I hope to start some more experiments later this summer to see if I can prove or disprove that it and products like it really work.

 

[fmxmatt]

I vaguely remember being told that "Cycle" works best when doing a cycle with fish, could be wrong tho. U are probably right, theres better products on the market but its working well for me. I've never seen high ammonia or nitrite in either of my tanks using the APF master kit.

What is another good one to use? Might try it next time just to see how things go

 

[nckate]

The h---? My tap water now reads 7.2 . I'm calling the water board tomorrow and asking for their stats, taking a sample of water in to BOTH the lfs and PetsMart (no, I don't buy my fish there!), and buying a GH/KH test. If it's very low, I'll try to get some crushed oyster shells to add to the water. Will they work in something like a net bag? The Eclipse filter doesn't have a place where you can insert your own stuff.

At a tank pH of 6, there should be about 1800 times more ammonium than ammonia in the water, which explains why I haven't noticed any signs of ammonia poisoning!

Today's stats:
pH = 6.0
NH3 = 3.0
NO2 = 0 (this puzzles me, as I did get a reading yesterday)
NO3 = 0

How big a water change should I do? I've been doing 50% daily (though I missed mine yesterday.) I use a python, so it's pretty much a snap.

And I think my little plec ate an entire wafer by himself. Last I checked, he was driving the gouramis away from it. Love the little guy.

PS: The biggest reason I did a fish cycle was because my fiance only had two weeks here (he was on leave from Iraq) and I wanted his advice on feading/cleaning/water changes.

 

[Tessla]

Sounds like you won't take your fish back and get yourself a bottle of ammonia then, you'll really want to keep up on water changes and minimize feeding. Your ammonia reading is very high for doing a 50% water change daily, likely due to your heavy stocking while cycling and possibly even heavy feeding since you've seemed very concerned about feeding your plec. I'd change that to 50% twice daily, or split it up into smaller more frequent water changes. More than 50% at once is going to be a big shock on your fish. Cut way back on feeding, only a little bit once every couple of days, it won't hurt your fish. They'll be able to pig out and create lots of poop later (so long as they survive cycling that is).

Like I mentioned before, pH goes all over the place while cycling, which is yet another reason not to cycle with fish as pH swings can be very harmful. If you can't find some crushed coral or other shells, you can add bicarbonate of soda (in the baking aisle) to buffer your water, you'll need to add it whenever you do a water change.

Just noticed that you're using bio-safe, this will likely mess with your ammonia readings and possibly even your nitrite readings, to get proper readings try to get a dechlorinator that doesn't act as an ammonia or nitrite locker. As an added bonus, they tend to be less expensive.

 

[nckate]

*sigh*

I'm kinda split on who to believe -- the people who make their living raising. keeping, and selling fish? The guy who raised koi to pay for all his tanks? the posters on a fish forum? -- so I'm trying to steer a middle course. No offense, guys. (Plus, I don't want to tell my fiance he's wrong unless I'm absolutely SURE he is.)

If things continue this badly, I'll take the fish back and get the ammonia, but i'd like to keep on this for awhile. Do you think the lfs will hold them for me, or will I have to buy them again? They were only $20 total, but I'm a student and that would buy three six-packs of a good import beer!

Like I said, the fish seem perfectly healthy, even the plec.

Jsut did another 50% change (more than I had inended, but there was so much crap in the gravel I had to do a full gravel vac.)

 

[rdd1952]

You may have a faulty pH kit but I doubt it. At least the low pH in your tank is keeping the ammonia from being harmful. As for the crushed coral, you can simply hang some in the tank. That's what I used to do. You don't need much. Once you get through the cycling process the pH will probably level out. It seems to always fluctuate a lot when there is ammonia present. I may have already mentioned it but I think people put too much importance on pH. As long as it is stable, the fish can adapt. The pH in my 3 tanks runs from 6.2 in my 29 gallon to 6.8 in the 75 and 7.2 in the 5 gallon. My tap has always been between 6.8 and 7.2. All of the fish are fine. Actually I hadn't tested the pH in probably 6 months to a year until I tested it yesterday for another thread about pH.

A 50% water change may be too much. Because of the difference in your tank pH and the tap pH, you could cause a big swing. If your tank is 6.0 and the tap is 7.2, a 50% change would swing it to about 6.6. That is a huge swing for the fish to take at once. You might try doing smaller ones twice a day.

And I think my little plec ate an entire wafer by himself. Last I checked, he was driving the gouramis away from it. Love the little guy.

LOL....That's why I said they were big waste producers even when small. They're eating and pooping machines.

And last but certainly not least, whether you approve of us being in Iraq or not, tell your husband thank you for what he is doing for our country and thank you to you for the sacrifices you and your family have to make.

Just out of curiousity, are you in North Carolina (nc in nckate?).

 

[nckate]

Yep, I'm in Greenville, finishing up a biology degree at ECU. (And I'm neither blond, in a sorority, or 22.)

He's not my husband yet, though we did think of running off to Vegas while he was on leave.
Thank you for your message, and I'll pass it on.

Edit: pH after the water change was 6.6. If something was buffering the water in the tank to a low pH, there shouldn't be that much of a swing. Therefore, most likely:

1. my water is quite soft AND
2. there was nothing buffering the pH to a low level AND
3. the initial pH was right around 6.0, and not much lower AND
4. my test kit is ok

 

[rdd1952]

I see where you said fiance. Didn't read everything. I've only been to Greenville twice but it seemed to be a nice place.

I missed answering part of your other post too. If it is a true LFS, they may hold them for you or let you trade them in for credit (probably not that if there is a chance they have any ammonia poisoning). A place like Petsmart or Petco doesnt have the quarantine tanks to handle returns so they most likely won't take them back and if they do, they will probably destroy them.

You mentioned not buying fish at Petsmart. One of the best fish stores near where I used to work as a Petsmart. They had 2 teens working there that both had tanks at home. They kept the tanks in the store spotless, much better than two true LFS nearby. I bought fish from them on a couple occasions and never had any problem with them.

 

[Amunet]

You could use a product called Prime.
It's a dechlorinator that neutralizes ammonia & nitrite.
Actually I asked here what product I should use that wouldn't affect the beneficial bacteria and that product was suggested to me.
Been using it for 2 weeks now during every water change (do water changes every 2 days).. and all my tanks are just fine... as far as cycling goes.
We also didn't have any luck using Bio-Spira in our tanks to cycle them

 

[vinylman]

*sigh*

I'm kinda split on who to believe -- the people who make their living raising. keeping, and selling fish? The guy who raised koi to pay for all his tanks? the posters on a fish forum? -- so I'm trying to steer a middle course. No offense, guys. (Plus, I don't want to tell my fiance he's wrong unless I'm absolutely SURE he is.)

If things continue this badly, I'll take the fish back and get the ammonia, but i'd like to keep on this for awhile. Do you think the lfs will hold them for me, or will I have to buy them again? They were only $20 total, but I'm a student and that would buy three six-packs of a good import beer!

Like I said, the fish seem perfectly healthy, even the plec.

Jsut did another 50% change (more than I had inended, but there was so much crap in the gravel I had to do a full gravel vac.)

As long as you have fish in an uncycled tank they will, unfortunately, suffer. You may not see any outward signs, but long-term gill damage can be caused by exposure to ammonia. See if the shop will take them back until your tank is cycled. There really is no substitute for researching before you buy. Most people reckon fishless cycling is the way to go. Most people are right.

 

[Tessla]

The difference between people who make a living raising, keeping and selling fish and the posters on this forum is that the people at your LFS profit from your problems by selling you various products and replacement fish when they die, there is absolutely no profit in this for the posters on this forum. I understand you wanting your fiance to be right (and he is, to a point, I started out cycling with fish as well, it has been proven to work and sometimes you get extra lucky and don't lose anything) and it's a good thing to question information given to you. I'm sure that he also wants you to have your tank set up the way you want it and may be sugar coating things a bit, I know I did when I first started helping my boyfriend sort out his tank that nothing could live in. (Once I got his ten gallon tank on a proper maintainence schedule, he went out and got quite a few fish that grow much too large, not allowed to buy fish by himself anymore.)

If your LFS is really a good one, they should either take the fish back with at least a partial refund or hold them for you considering the circumstances. From the sounds of it, you got this all set up in a hurry which is usually the biggest cause of problems during cycling, fishless or not.

 

[rdd1952]

*sigh*

I'm kinda split on who to believe -- the people who make their living raising. keeping, and selling fish? The guy who raised koi to pay for all his tanks? the posters on a fish forum? -- so I'm trying to steer a middle course. No offense, guys. (Plus, I don't want to tell my fiance he's wrong unless I'm absolutely SURE he is.)

Up until about 10 years ago, no one had every heard of a fishless cycle. Someone came up with a way to do it and it caught on. Those of us who are newer to the hobby think it is the best way and have jumped on the band wagon but, if you talk to people who have had tanks back in the early 90s and before, they will tell you that they always cycled with fish, it's all they knew. And it works but you generally will have casualties. I doubt you could convince many of them that a fishless cycle was worth the time.

I don't know that the fish store owners are necessarily looking to profit from people's mistakes, although they certainly can and some I’m sure are, but most of them are from that time period when that's the way it was done and are slow to change their ideas. Can you cycle with fish? Certainly, but it takes some work with the daily or twice-daily water changes to keep the ammonia and nitrite low, which incidentally, the oldsters had also never heard of.

I just noticed a newer member (tmack) on here who happens to live in the same area as me and by coincidence has worked 29 years with the same company that my wife worked 22 years for (different offices). We have communicated by PM and he was mentioning that he had been into fishkeeping for almost 50 years and that they never tested for ammonia or nitrite. They didn’t even know what they were.

So are you doing it wrong? No. Is there an easier way? Yes, but it does mean looking at an empty tank for a while. You may lose some fish but I dare anyone on here to say they’ve never lost a fish. I know I certainly have.

As Tessla mentioned, none of us have anything to gain by giving bad advice. We don’t always agree on everything but we all want to help people with their problems so they can enjoy the same hobby we all love. If you get conflicting view, you just have to sort them out and decide what is best. After all, we aren’t going to come over to your house and take your fish away for fish abuse (you said you were in Greenville didn’t you???). Just be patient, keep up the water changes and it should work out.

 

[nckate]

The pH is down again. Something's going on. No nitrite and only 1 ppm ammonia, so I'm holding off on the water change until I can get to the lfs this afternoon with a water sample. They seem very capable and experienced (plus the tanks looked spotless,) so they should be able to help.

What causes a drop in pH in aquarium water? Decaying organics? Would the heavy aeration be introducing CO2 into the water? I'll try turning the airpump down (it's currently running wide open.)

You're right -- it's difficult sorting out advice! For example, I've heard people who've kept plecs say that the young ones are very delicate. I've also heard others say that plecs, even the juveniles, are the cockroaches of the aquarium world. Some people say the inch-per-gallon rule is a good one, others say that it's complete crap.