Some Cycling-with-fish Questions

[nckate]

First off, please don't eat me! I talked to two lfs OWNERS (including the one whose tanks were spotless, she keeps the store as a hobby, and I bought the equipment from her but she knew I wasn't going to get the fish) and my fiance (who's been keeping fish for twenty years), and they all recommended it.

My tank is a 25 gallon with the Eclipse 2 filter/hood/lighting thing. I keep it at 78 degrees and use the Bio-Safe dechlorinator that came with it. I filled it and let it run for two days, and then got my fish ten days ago. Three female opaline gouramis and a teeny-tiny bristlenose plec. I also run an airpump and the kind of flat continuous airstones that create a bubble curtain at the back. So aeration is definitely not a problem.

But ... everything seems to be going wrong. Even with adding Bio-Spira at the beginning and daily 50% water changes, the ammonia is from 2 to 4 ppm! I've seen a little bit of nitrIte, but the water changes seem to be diluting it out. At least that means the tank is actually cycling. Also, the tank is waaay acidic. My tap water is pH 6.4, but the tank water is consistently 6.0 (or below, but the API test kit doesn't measure any lower.) It's pretty smelly, too. I had a big twisty piece of wood from the lfs in there, but there was some mold (white fuzzy stuff) growing on it, so I took it out last night. Could that have been a cause of the high ammonia? The reading today (eight hours after the water change) was only 1.4 ppm, so I think that's helping.

The fish don't seem to be showing any signs of stress. They eat like hogs, chase each other around (one reason I had the wood in there, I also have a very large silk plant) and are generally active. My only worry is that when I drop an algae wafer in for my plec, the gouramis usually drive him away and eat it themselves.

Finally, I've been feeding Bio-Blend sinking pellets (why yes, I did get all that stuff packaged with the tank!) but they seem to sink rather fast and some of them get stuck in the gravel. Should I get some flake instead and hope it distracts them from the algae wafers?

I'd appreciate any advice!

 

[rdd1952]

Ahh, that is why we all favor fishless cycling. First plecos are big waste producers, even small ones. Second, I would go to 2 water changes a day until you get the ammonia down. One thing you do have in your favor is the fact that ammonia is less toxic in low pH water. It actually is trnsformed into it's non-toxic form of ammonium somewhere around 6 or below. You would still get a reading but it wouldn't be toxic. I would also cut down on what you feed them. Less food means less waste and less ammonia. You should also start checking for nitrite if you haven't aready. It is also toxic and will have to be addressed once some of the ammonia is being processed.

 

[nckate]

Seriously -- my plec is about an inch and a half long (two inches if you count the tail fin.) I don't think he's adding a whole lot of waste to the tank.

And the fish seem heathy and active so far, so I don't think the cycle is affecting them.

 

[rdd1952]

Even small plecos can create a lot of waste. As I said, your low pH may be low enough that the ammonia is actually ammonium (non-toxic) so that is why the fish aren't seeming to have a problem. But once the ammonia starts turning into nitrite and that level starts to rise, you may see the problems start. The stuff on the wood may have been part of your problem. Was it a piece you bought at the LFS? One thing to keep in mind though now that you have removed it is that driftwood lowers pH so you may see your pH start to drift back up, changing the ammonium back into ammonia, especially as you do water changes and replace the 6.0 or less water with 6.4 water.

 

[fmxmatt]

I've setup all my tanks and cycled with fish and never had a problem. I use "Cycle" for my tanks and it seems to do the job very well (i've never seen ammonia over 2 before)

And before anyone says anything, yes I can confirm both my tanks are cycled and I have the proper liquid master test kit (sorry i cant remember brand names)

My suggestion is, get hold of something like "Cycle" which you can do an initial large dose then weekly doses so beneficial bacteria can get a hold in your tank.

I'd also put that piece of driftwood back in the tank for your plec Mine love the driftwood

 

[Amunet]

Cycle is crap IMO..
They said they used Bio-Spira which is MUCh much better if you can get it when it's still good and the bacteria is still alive.
The constant large daily water changes probably got rid of most of the Bio-Spira you put into the tank so the bacteria didn't have enough time to multiply before you did another water change.

Right now.. I would just continue to do what you're doing. Maybe reduce the amount of water you're taking out though unless the ammonia, or nitrite is very high.


Have you tryed dropping the wafers in at night for the plec?

 

[stang1]

I'd try dropping the wafers in at night as Amunet suggested and see how you get on. Gouramis are greedy things so trydropping some food in for them at the same time as you feed your Pleco.
Also, I don't know how sensitive Gouramis are but I do know that Plecos can be very sensitive so I would keep an eye on it. Ideally, a Pleco shouldn't be put in a newly set up tank, they prefer one that has matured for a while.

 

[Miss Wiggle]

your pH is likely to be affected by cycing, the high levels of ammonia and nitrite throw your pH all over the place.

you should get a pH meter or a test that can test below 6 as the nitrifying bacteria that live at a pH of less than 5 are different to those who live above it. so if your pH drops that low your bacteria will be killed off and it'll start cycling again, and those bacteria are very slow growing, and will also then die off if your pH goes back up above 5 and your tank will start cycling again.

I'll be the first to admit I don't fully understand it myself but you should look into gH and kH and the hardness of your water, it could be that you have a very low buffering capacity, this can be corrected fairly easily with bicarbonate of soda and would stop your pH swinging. But you must make sure you test and check if this is the problem first.

 

[rdd1952]

My suggestion is, get hold of something like "Cycle" which you can do an initial large dose then weekly doses so beneficial bacteria can get a hold in your tank.

Cycle is crap IMO..

My sentiments exactly. Those products aren't refrigerated and reach temperatures of well over 125 degrees while being shipped in trucks and stored in warehouses. I have tested tried them and tested them and found them to do nothing other than add a bit of ammonia to the tank (they contain ammonia which is supposed to be a food source to keep the bacteria alive). I don't understand why the Bio-Spira didn't work though as it is generally pretty good but if it hasn't been properly handled and refrigerated, it is useless too. Refrigeration is the key.

I'd also put that piece of driftwood back in the tank for your plec Mine love the driftwood

With the driftwood having something on it, putting it back it the tank may not be a good idea without thouroughly boiling it or treating it first. That could have been the cause of her porblems. Also, it will lower the pH which is already at or below 6.0.

The food getting stuck in the gravel may be another problem causing the high pH. Decaying food creates ammonia too. Floating food like flakes will help prevent that. That's also why I prefer sand to gravel. Everything simply lays on the top.

 

[LisaLQ]

If you're going to do a cycle using fish, you should only use one or two small fish - depending on tank size of course - not so many.

That poor plec's probably going to cark it I'm afraid, not only are they sensitive to poor water conditions, but in a new tank there wont be any algae, and while the other fish are nicking his food - that means he's got no back up food to clean up around the tank.

Patience is a virtue. Next time you want to start up a fish tank, cycle it first (either fishless or using one or two HARDY fish), then stock it

 

[ghostchoir]

I'm cycling with fish and my little guys are all fine. My only suggestion is perhaps you should have left things longer? We used Tetra SafeStart and were told by the owners to leave it at least a week (with everything running) before adding the fish.

 

[rdd1952]

We used Tetra SafeStart and were told by the owners to leave it at least a week (with everything running) before adding the fish.

Your tank must be doing ok but those products are useless and the shop owners are simply trying to sell them. If they indeed have beneficial bacteria in them (and my opinion as well as most everyone else's is that they don't), adding it and leaving for 2 weeks would basically defeat the purpose as any bacteria that you just added would die off in 2 weeks from lack of food if you weren't providing an ammonia source.

 

[nckate]

I added Bio-Spira (from the store's refrigerator) and waited five days for the first water change. Will get a GH/KH test today -- the API Master Test Kit doesn't include them, and none of the pH kits in the store went below 6.0. I checked!

According to both my fiance and the lfs employee (who was REALLY good, and knew her stuff), plecos are tough little buggers. He seems happy and did get some of the last wafer. Also, he scours the bottom looking for food. Should I put something like zucchini in for him? I'm also going to probably switch to flake for the gouramis -- floating stuff is good, and I can scoop out the uneatens.

If worse comes to worst and i see him pining, I'll take him back to the store until the tank is cycled.

 

[ghostchoir]

Ignore this, posted in COMPLETELY the wrong place.....

 

[Tessla]

First off, be wary of information given to you, even by people with years of experience. Most LFS employees are very good at sounding very knowledgeable and convincing, even when giving you bad information. The only way to tell if they really know their stuff or not is to know the answers yourself before asking them. Unless they're constantly seeking out new and more effective methods, a lot of them get stuck in thier old way of doing things and won't budge. I still hear "fish will only grow to the size of their tank" all the time and most shop owners won't recommend fishless cycling (and frequently won't bother talking about cycling in general) because they haven't heard of it or don't understand it themselves.

Was there any mention of fishless cycling? If there was, there's no way cycling with fish should be the preferable method and I'd be very wary of future advice. I'd be wary of future advice anyways considering that they know you're cycling with fish and you ended up with three gouramis and a plec in a tank that size, some of the last fish I'd choose to cycle with. As mentioned before, if you're cycling with fish you want to start with only a couple of very small hardy fish, often some species of small tetra or danios. Your current stocking gets your tank very near full capacity (and that's full capacity for a cycled, mature 25 gallon tank).

Many plecos are tough buggers once they've matured a bit but the juveniles are much more delicate and shouldn't be added to a cycling tank. Bottom feeders get hit the hardest when cycling as that's where all the muck first starts to build up. They pretty much live to poop, I currently have a clown pleco about the same size as yours and he produces an enormous amount of waste for a fish of his size. I'd take him back as well as the gouramis and get yourself either a bottle of pure ammonia or a couple of danios to finish your cycle with. Even if they appear to be happy and active right now, they may very well die overnight as you have very unstable water chemistry while cycling.

As for feeding, be very careful not to overfeed, especially while cycling! It's much better to underfeed and won't hurt the fish at all, overfeeding on the other hand will drive your ammonia levels through the roof. I'd avoid zuchinni, other veggies and any frozen or live foods entirely until you've got a mature stable tank.

I found a very nice article explaining GH and KH (linked in my signature), it's definitely worth a read. Low pH isn't so dangerous as a fluctuating pH. It sounds as though you have very soft water, which means you have very little buffering capacity (KH, this keeps your pH stable by absorbing excess acids) and your tank will be prone to large swings in pH. Cycling normally sends pH all over the place (yet another thing besides the ammonia and nitrites that is very harmful to fish) so it's difficult to tell if there is actually a problem without readings for GH and KH.