shouldn't a responsible seller list how big a fish will grow???

[anewbie]

Well, you've named the ones that I would recommend--wetspot, aquatic clarity, imperial and tangled. I did not know tangled closed. Just went to the site and sure enough. I believe Tristan's Tropical Fish https://tristanstropicalfish.com/ has an apisto section but I've no experience with them. A discus friend thinks highly of him. Then there are the aquabid listings from individual breeders.

Yea i know several people who have used tristan with good things to say but i have never used him; he doesn't currently have anything interesting to me; nor does wetspot - they indicated not a lot is shipping from columbia and brazil - not sure what is up.

aquabid is no better than ebay; you take your chances with the seller.

 

[anewbie]

What's lacking is the curiosity that makes people look for it, until they've made a few costly (to their fish) mistakes, and they come to the realization that this is complicated.

This I think is a fundamental problem in today society people just don't seem curious anymore and they eat up junk even when it is obvious contradictory junk.

 

[GaryE]

It's nothing new - I just think the net and social media make it more obvious. We've always had a curiosity deficit and a certainty surplus. It's been in the hobby, and elsewhere. I think we've lost the culture that surrounded the hobby, which is a shame because it was a good one.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

I have a few observations here some of which I expect may annoy some folks. I will also be my usually long winded self and what follows is long.

The Wetspot is the retail operation of their real business which is wholesale. In the selling of fish there are two faces to the business, well three to be more honest. Depending on one's dedication and experience combined with the size of their bank account, where they might buy fish varies. there are 3 options- retail, wholesale (if you qualify) and import if you are well connected and can buy box lots of fish. The last two options are normally used by more experienced fish people.

Those new to the hobby shop at local fish and.or pet stores. The prices are usually the highest for small numbers. These places have as there ideal goal to sell a fish five minutes after it arrives. This means no work to keep it and no money spend to feed it and or need for employees to do the tank work needed if it stays in the store for a while. They make their money on turnover. So, for most stores this means the lower the costs of operating the store, the more profit they can make for sales. This impacts what they are willing to pay their employees. The more knowledge and experience on has about fish, the more they will need to be paid

I have an excellent store not too far from me. In order to be hire to work there they give you a written exam on your fish knowledge. So their staff is excellent. And their stock is also quality and care for well. This makes them one of the most expensive shops I know. Most of the customers do not care and will pay up for quality and solid information. So there are a few stores like this, but most are the rapid turnover kind. And they will not usually pay employees what who know their stuff and know to tell a customer given fish is not a good idea for them to buy. Caveat emptor.

The wholesalers and exporters are selling to better educated fish folks who also can afford to buy and to hose box lots which oten mean 50 fish. And that doesn't entitle one to the lowest price. One must order more fish than that.

But here is the part that is going to annoy folks, I used to believe that 75% of people were basically stupid. over the year I find my self thinking it may be as many as 95%. That is why the third line of my signature on this sight saying what it does. May I have that number to high but I am not so sure.

And this has been exacerbated by social media. For the most part is is where good information goes to die. This is why I am not registered on any such sites- not Google, Facebook, Instagram, Tik Tok etc. etc. It is also why I do more searching for fish related information on Google Scholar than on Google. In support of this I can use this site as a perfect example.

When I first joined here is was for one big reason- The scientific Section which at the time was actually active. I had some problems with the mod staff here at the time and as I normally due, I do not complain about such things, I vote with my feet and just walk away , which I did from here for some time. I did return, obviously.

When I did so I began to read a lot of threads about people having cycling issues, especially cycles that stalled. So I offered to rewrite the fairly poor article on fishless cycling. I have never approved of fish in cycling for those new to the hobby and I refuse to help folks determined to do it. But I was willing to offer help to those whose really had things screwed up. And that lead to the two articles on Rescuing a Fish- In Cycle Gone Wild.

At that time there wa one piece of information I had never read on this site. That was the use of chloride to deal with nitrite. The second article laid out a step by step way to do this.

What I did notice after the articles had been up for a while was the number of stalled cycle threads declined a lot. An what is even more important is overt time I saw other suggesting salt (sodium chloride) for dealing with nitrite in a tank with fish.

The las thing I was and am still willing to do is to work one on one with any memeber who cannot seem to get their tank cyled to do so. I will do this five site Pms, emails and even phone calls (voice only). I have only one rule in this respect, if I am going to help spmebody mine must be the only advice they take as long as I am "on the job." I will also say to folks that they need to pick one source and listen to it exclusively even when that is not me. The reason is simple. Either that person they choose to advise them will either help them to scuceed or they will fail to do so, Either wast the person seeking the help will then learn if the helper knows what they are talking about or does not.

This means the peson wanting help will also learn whom to trust on this subject and they will either learn what works or what doesn't. But I am retired and single, so I have the time to nbe able to do this. I do not look for cudos when I help simeboody get their cycle done and I will not do this in an open thread where others will chime in and often jsut confuse the person with whom I am working. So none ot this is ever posted on a thread.

The main reason I help people with failing fish in cycles it it has two benefits,First it helps the fish which may siuffer and even die if nobody offers good halp. The second is for a new fish keeper who tried to cycle with fish and is fialing they are usually pretty stressed out, if I can get them "over the hump" that stress gets reduced and hopefilly leaves then better able to care for their fsh. So I will never help anyone start a fish in cycle but will help them save their fish from their mistakes.

The problem here is not much different than the issue of knowing the proper information about a fish before one gets it. But as noted in the threads above there a lot of people who just wont learn and who will keep making mistakes. Hence, why you will sometimes read me writing that, "You can lead a fish keeper to water, but you can't make them think."

That all said I am far fromperfect myslef. Ihave made my shares of mistalkes along the way. I have had a few tank disasters. I am not prefec and sometimes I will do something stupid. But I also admit it when I screwed up and it cost the lives of fish that desrved better treatment.

And that is just my opinoin on this subject. A smart person not know knows what they know, they also know ehn the do not know and they then take the steps to learn. If you want to become a good fish keeper, you do need to do your homework. And this appleies to all of us in the hobby.

As I often will end a post like this one I will say once again that the above is my opinion. Other people may see things differently and they are often correct about things. That is the neat thing about this hobby, there is usually more than a single right way to do things. So it is always up to anybody reaing what I suggest/state to decide for themselves how to react and what they may choose to do in any given situation.

 

[jaylach]

There are a lot of good points being put out in this thread but I still can't really fault the ignorant buyer especially with someone new to the hobby. Too many newbies to the hobby go in a big box pet store and make the mistake of believing what the sales person says due to thinking the sales person must know what they are saying.

Yes, a beginner should look up fish but they probably don't even know that is needed as they think they got the needed info from the store employee.

 

[Innesfan]

I hate to say it, but it was easier to get good info before the internet. There was a long line of aquarium writers whose credibility was established over a tough process, and whose books were sold in most good pet stores. The average bookstore actually had a shelf of aquarium books for sale, and my local library had 40 or 50 books, with rows of monthly professional magazines. Every fishclub had its library, usually on wheels and put away between meetings. It was a busy spot on the break before the auction. My largest local chain fish store had 3 volumes of the Baensch atlas available in two languages for consultation before you bought any of their fish. The clerks would take new customers over and find the fish for them, standing by while they read the half page.

Agreed. And those books had another consequence for those of us who read them and relied on them: they shaped us as generalists in the hobby. Sure, we might have our individual specialties--killies, discus, livebearers, bettas, apistos--but because of those books we also knew a little something about so many others even if we never kept them. We knew that badis were chameleons, and hatchetfish required tight-fitting covers, and leaf fish only ate living food, and pristellas were probably the easiest characins to spawn and white clouds came from cool running waters, etc, etc. Those books invited us to be curious about all fishes.

 

[FranciscoB]

I think providing info if available (seller) and getting that information if not given (buyer) is a shared responsability. Neither one more accountable, but if anything, I think the buyer has the burden. One can blame the seller who sold us the bridge or pyramid, but we should blame more ourselves. Just my opinion.

 

[fishorama]

I think some of the problems of buying new fish comes from "common names" versus ""Latin' names" & now newer names too. Sellers are often shipped fish by a common name, so that's how they sell them. They don't or can't attest to the truth of those.

& some names are similar that are especially confusing to new fish keepers. Red tailed shark vs red tailed catfish are very different but both cute bottom fish at a very small size. How many "rummynose tetras" are there now? More than the 1 kind when we started in the late 70s/early 80s. Even more now as new species of many genera than were ID'ed than sold back then. I know some fish well enough to see they might be different from what I expect, but there can be individual variations due to age, gender or variety.

I ask questions then research as best I can before buying. Not many newbies do that or know they should. They have to believe someone, often a lfs employee. I once saw young zebra loaches I had wanted in a Petco. I asked how much they were & was told they were yoyo loaches, $1.99. I said no, here's a pic in a book they sold. Well, that's how they're listed so that's how they sell them. I bought all 6 & checked to make sure b. striatas were all the same in the bag, all they had.

I also sat on the wet floor while the slightly snobby/scary lfs guy & I looked up what kind of new loaches they had. He knew me as a fussy older fish buyer that knew her stuff, more or less. We narrowed them down & I said I'll look them up online. I ended up not getting them, but I greatly appreciated the attention he gave me & he liked helping me too. It pays to make friends of knowlegable lfs employees.

At another I would ask what new loaches they had, then catfish, then browse other fish. They knew me too. Not a frequent buyer but that I liked oddities unlike some others.

So, I guess I'm saying buyer & sellers could both be more aware & helpful with research. I tend not to take any 1 source of info as truth, but give them the benefit of my doubts...until I learn differently from what I consider reliable places. I have a LOT of patience waiting for what I want, lol.

Unlike 2tank, I run out of patience helping newbies cycle sometimes. Pick 1 & go with it, any way can work...eventually, but they have to stick with it. His preferred way is not mine, usually, but he beats me on the patient step by step help

 

[Magnum Man]

it's clear a lot of us feel both ways... I think, really, do I trust the info I get from a sellers site... but I do enjoy, not having to go on big www. search, if the fish isn't a fit for me, I can just click "next"... if the sellers information looks reasonable, and I think I want the fish, then I'll look on another highly respected site like "Seriously"... if the seller doesn't provide fish info, they risk me leaving their site, and if another seller I buy from is where I land, I'm more likely to buy from the seller that gave me credible info... it works the same with pictures... if all I see are GQ male pictures, I'm likely to go looking for pictures of the female as well, or as they look at time of sale... and if that's provided by a seller I buy from, I'm more likely to purchase from them...

but you guy's know... I like unusual fish, and I have taken the chance on a fish with no description, or even any picture... but taking a chance on those, I'd have to look up the scientific name, and find a picture somewhere else, and if they just aren't available, I have clicked "buy it" knowing it's a risk

 

[GaryE]

One solution would be for all of us who know stuff to start fish stores. I remember speaking to a fishkeeper who lived several hours from a city with an airport, which means several hours from easy access to fish. She surprised me with the info that there were 3 women within 15km of her that had garage stores - maybe 10 tanks in the back of their garages, and a phone ahead retail model. They spoke regularly so they all wouldn't buy the same fish and kill each other with competition (the fish cartel) and they offered a nice range of bread and butter fish between them. A very local store in the nearest city would let them order what they needed, as long as they were there to get the fish when the flights came in. Then they'd drive a few hours back home and sell fish.
That rural fishkeeper, one year into the hobby, knew a lot. She wasn't a reader. But her sellers were.

I thought it was a weird, impractical idea, but then I encountered an urban guy with a work from home tech business. He rented a space across the road and sold specialty fish, all wild caught and all from South America. You e-mailed him with a time and he would meet you at the store, which tended not to have bread and butter fish, but really interesting ones at fair prices. When you left, he locked up and went back to work at his day job. He's doing really well as a business, with low overhead and a good steady arrival of stock. The next time I'm in his city, he'll get another e-mail.

I have a local fish first store, so I wouldn't compete with them. The market's too small. But if I didn't, I would consider something like that. And rest assured, the info on the fish would be shared.

 

[Innesfan]

shouldn't a responsible vendor post how large a fish gets as an adult???

I'm not intentionally picking on Wet Spot, as I believe they are a pretty good vendor... I don't like that a lot of fish they have for sale, don't have descriptions done... I was zooming through "what's new", and found this fish, which looks very interesting...

Well, getting back to the post that launched this thread, the following arrived in my email-box today. Excerpt from the Wetspot weekly newletter:

 

[anewbie]

Well, getting back to the post that launched this thread, the following arrived in my email-box today. Excerpt from the Wetspot weekly newletter:

View attachment 366714

Yea i saw those - was thinking it would fit well in my 10 foot aquarium but then noticed it was from africa.... just kidding - i did see them and the africa part is only 1/2 kidding but it is more that my aquariums are fully stocked with regards to species. oops my angels just irritated the chocoalte so now they have to go to the other side - anyway what was i saying not much - though i realize that your point is the details of the description (which i did not see since i do not get their newsletter); last but least is 9 even enough for a school - don't you need like 20 or 40 ?

 

[Innesfan]

... but least is 9 even enough for a school - don't you need like 20 or 40 ?

Yes, and a swimming pool.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Small plecos for sale. Best kept in groups. $12/fish you pay shipping.

 

[GaryE]

We're doing something wrong. I'm visiting family, and last night we ended up watching an oddly interesting garden show - a British one. Garden hobbyists there have a fantastic infrastructure, working together and creating collective projects that seem to work. We ended up at a beautiful garden centre today (guess what my relatives are into) and when I asked questions about plants, where I am almost a newb, I got two types of answers. One was "Hang on, I'll get someone who knows those ones", and the other was a battery of quick questions to establish my set up followed by very grounded sounding advice. Everyone working there was into plants. All hands were a bit dirty. There were no "I hate this but I couldn't get a job selling shoes like I want to" kids.

Every good garden centre I go to has a culture of knowledge. In them, you could trust the advice of the really engaged sellers.

In the North American aquarium trade, we have stadiums named for corporate pet companies, but untrained minimum wage workers thrust into giving advice and helping people start up with vulnerable live creatures. I don't blame the new aquarists who follow bad advice - I blame the business model that treats life as so expendable. To a degree, I also blame more experienced hobbyists, who don't seem able to create a sub culture the way garden people have.

I guess the garden world is blighted with all the temporary hardware and grocery store outlets that can look a lot like Petcorporation fish sales, but there are enough real garden places to keep them honest. I started buying fish in what were then common department stores that resembled walmarts, but quickly graduated to real fish stores when I saw how short fish lives were from the guppy mills. It's really hard for people to move up to better shops now, because they're gone. Somehow, we let that happen and the garden crowd didn't.