shouldn't a responsible seller list how big a fish will grow???

[fishorama]

I don't expect a seller to know all about a particular species. They, like many of us, can find info that may be wrong, outdated or what we'd like to hear, especially about a newer species. & that's if the species is the 1 listed & researched.

I rarely buy fish I know nothing about. I don't have a smart phone, so I have less impulse buying...but I have done it a couple times. Killifish were 1 of those that sticks in my mind. Small schoolers have been hit or miss too.

 

[jaylach]

I don’t care if the naive buyer suffers for not doing their homework but I do care that the poor fish will suffer. Therefore I want the seller to post all necessary information for a fish to thrive.

In an idealistic fish world there would no humans to buy or throw a hook at...

Usually we seem to be in the same area as to thoughts about tanks but I have to throw out a few thoughts on the above.

I'm not the best at responding with the intent to show where I think differently so, if anything comes through as abrasive PLEASE understand that it is not intent, just the way I talk... ​

• Many members that come here are just those "naive buyer" people that don't even know there is homework to do until shown, Rather than condemn the naive novice I would prefer to teach.
• Again we are talking the novice buyer here. Yes, full disclosure of proper conditions for the specific fish would be nice but would the naive buyer even understand the numbers? Should a buyer research? Of course they should but many don't even know there are different water conditions... Question:"Is your water hard or soft?". Answer:"What do you mean? All water is soft. If water was hard it would hurt my hand when I splash.". Many have the best of intentions but have no real clue what the intentions should be.

 

[MaloK]

If the question is reversible, I tend to think both should do due diligence.

shouldn't a responsible buyer know how big a fish will grow???​

But, if you ask my boss if his wine is dry ? He'll reply "No, it's wet."

 

[Innesfan]

There are several excellent sources for fish that are little more than lists of species, scientific names only, no manufactured common names, and little other information other than present size and source (i.e. Guyana, TR from Czechia, Venezeula, etc.). These suppliers are invaluable to us but it falls to us to know what we are buying.

 

[anewbie]

There are several excellent sources for fish that are little more than lists of species, scientific names only, no manufactured common names, and little other information other than present size and source (i.e. Guyana, TR from Czechia, Venezeula, etc.). These suppliers are invaluable to us but it falls to us to know what we are buying.

Can you name any that sell dwarf cichilid; i only have a couple of good sources and need more; the ones i use are wetspot and aquaticclarity; in a jam i'll use impericaltropical (the fishes have been fine but their packaging is a pia to deal with). tangle was ok but they shut down.

 

[sharkweek178]

I'll be a devil's advocate here.
Suppose a store offered an article on every fish they sold. It had all the details, pros and cons - all the basics covered.

Most buyers wouldn't read it.

How many times in the many years forums have been around have you read "I know it gets too big but I'll buy a large enough tank when it gets there." How many times has that actually happened? Even with the info, a hefty number of buyers will ignore all the facts and go with their whims.

People who seem to care about animal care won't even learn. Yesterday, I heard a sincere young store person giving awful advice. Don't cycle. Treat for chloramines (not used in our city) and let the tank sit unoccupied for 2 weeks. Then it's ready.

How available are the basics of the cycle? It's everywhere, if you bother to learn. How many people really do the necessary water changes, compared to how many pick a half baked guru who says aquariums can be natural ecosystems, or that aquariums don't need fresh water? I have a friend who goes through little red Bororas like popcorn. When I had them here, the group expanded. The only difference is how we keep fish is I do weekly changes, and she does changes sometimes. She buys about 10 a month to maintain her group of 50 (which I gave her when I moved on from the group - I had Bororas maculatus). She is a very smart person with a responsible job, but water changes? Boring. Endless replacement? Yeah!

People just work that way sometimes. All we can do is ensure we do it differently.

People just take it for granted that the employees in the fish section of a big box store, or any other fish store are experts. Now there are knowledgeable and well meaning employees and there are employees who aren't knowledgeable and just trying to make a sale. For someone new to fish keeping, it's impossible to tell the difference. Giving good advice can actually be a financial disincentive for a store. Some places are afraid to tell someone it will take 6-8 weeks before an aquairum is ready for fish. Because they think the customer could lose interest or go somewhere else.
The internet is not much better. I feel fortunate to have found this site and had access to a lot of great advice here. But if you look at fish keeping groups on Facebook or elsewhere, it's cringe. "I never cycled a tank and haven't changed water in 20 years. I just top off. My fish are fine."
And the sad reality is that people will gravitate to the advice that is convenient for them. They'll think you can dump chemicals in a tank every day instead of doing a proper cycle because that appeals to their impatience. They'll go with a no water change practice because it's easier.

 

[GaryE]

When I was new to this quiet mania, I had an mbuna tank. There was this really tough street kid type working in a local store, and I realized he knew those fish well. One day I went in and wanted to buy a red top zebra. He asked to be reminded of my tank size and stocking and I told him. He refused to sell me the fish, saying I was overstocked.
I disagreed, but our conversation was private. I thought more when I got home and went back that weekend to thank him. He had been absolutely right. He wasn't in, and when I asked about him, he'd been fired. Apparently, the boss didn't like his advice to several customers like me. I knew I wasn't the cause because no one had overheard us, but I also knew the cause was his integrity.

That's no reflection on sellers like wet spot, who are known and respected for their own integrity. It does say something about chain stores though (this was a local chain with 5 stores at that time). If you know too little and say less, you are a lot safer working in retail.

 

[anewbie]

One problem with today store vs when i was a kid is many folks are kids (which cost less) that work for a short period in their life at the chain store and very few of them have the desire to gain expertise; when i was a kid the person who ran the family petshop wasn't an expert per sey but he knew the fishes he sold and provided what advice he coudl based off of experience.

In regards to @GaryE story; the store made a huge mistake firing someone with knowledge and it is even more shocking that it happened many years ago when people were of higher moral value; these days that kind of story would be expected.

The person at my local petco is ok; he knows a little but is hardly an expert and he tried to sell me a p. catfish which someone had 'donated' to the store - on the one hand it was a nice large healthy fish on the other hand it was totally incompatible with my stocking and most people stocking. He had put it in with some smaller fishes that will make a nice snack later that night

 

[anewbie]

There was something else i wanted to add - in this day and age I think a new fish keeper should learn which sites have reliable information on fishes - while 40 years ago it might have been difficult to obtain information on fishes (of course then you wouldn't have been buying fishes on-line either); these days there is no excuse why you can't find detail information on a single fish that interest you - anyone shopping online can take a minute to read up on the fish they are looking at - this also should be done to deteermine if the fish is compatible with your stocking and the retailer didn't make a mistake in the information they provided.

The argument that the retailer should provide some information boils down to the buyer being too lazy to open a new tab to read about the fish.

 

[gwand]

But you make the innocent fish pay for the laziness and/or naivety of the buyer.

 

[anewbie]

But you make the innocent fish pay for the laziness and/or naivety of the buyer.

I don't look at it like that - if the buyer is that naive the fish doesn't have much of a chance to begin with. I mean think of all those red tail shark or common pleco put in 5 and 10 gallon aquariums; I'm not even sure such a lazy buyer is reading the information on the website or knows if they have soft or hard water.

 

[Fishkeeper123]

I don't look at it like that - if the buyer is that naive the fish doesn't have much of a chance to begin with. I mean think of all those red tail shark or common pleco put in 5 and 10 gallon aquariums; I'm not even sure such a lazy buyer is reading the information on the website or knows if they have soft or hard water.

Even though people should know what their water is(hardness) and should look up the fish. How do you think the fish feels, the buyer is responsible to look up the fish but if they don’t because they are lazy or for whatever reason, the fish shouldn’t have to pay. Therefore to ensure that the fish get what they deserve the sellers(mainly talking about big companies) should put what minimum tank size is, temperature, water hardness I guess and maybe group size. Yes the buyer is being a bad Fishkeeper by not researching but I would much rather the sellers give information because let’s say 95%look up the fish the other 5%may not and half of those will probably live a bad life in a 10 gallon tank. Eventhough we live in a world where we can information it’s safer to give the information than not.

 

[sharkweek178]

When I was new to this quiet mania, I had an mbuna tank. There was this really tough street kid type working in a local store, and I realized he knew those fish well. One day I went in and wanted to buy a red top zebra. He asked to be reminded of my tank size and stocking and I told him. He refused to sell me the fish, saying I was overstocked.
I disagreed, but our conversation was private. I thought more when I got home and went back that weekend to thank him. He had been absolutely right. He wasn't in, and when I asked about him, he'd been fired. Apparently, the boss didn't like his advice to several customers like me. I knew I wasn't the cause because no one had overheard us, but I also knew the cause was his integrity.

That's no reflection on sellers like wet spot, who are known and respected for their own integrity. It does say something about chain stores though (this was a local chain with 5 stores at that time). If you know too little and say less, you are a lot safer working in retail.

TBH, I don't think too many beginners are ordering fish online from places like Wet Spot.

 

[Innesfan]

Can you name any that sell dwarf cichilid; i only have a couple of good sources and need more; the ones i use are wetspot and aquaticclarity; in a jam i'll use impericaltropical (the fishes have been fine but their packaging is a pia to deal with). tangle was ok but they shut down.

Well, you've named the ones that I would recommend--wetspot, aquatic clarity, imperial and tangled. I did not know tangled closed. Just went to the site and sure enough. I believe Tristan's Tropical Fish https://tristanstropicalfish.com/ has an apisto section but I've no experience with them. A discus friend thinks highly of him. Then there are the aquabid listings from individual breeders.

 

[GaryE]

There are huge issues here - the need for more science education in our school systems (so the basic concepts of the hobby make sense and have context), the need to read and do independent research, as opposed to watching youtubers who may not have done their life homework, and access to credible sources.

I hate to say it, but it was easier to get good info before the internet. There was a long line of aquarium writers whose credibility was established over a tough process, and whose books were sold in most good pet stores. The average bookstore actually had a shelf of aquarium books for sale, and my local library had 40 or 50 books, with rows of monthly professional magazines. Every fishclub had its library, usually on wheels and put away between meetings. It was a busy spot on the break before the auction. My largest local chain fish store had 3 volumes of the Baensch atlas available in two languages for consultation before you bought any of their fish. The clerks would take new customers over and find the fish for them, standing by while they read the half page.

Fish catchers would be quizzed by the manager on fish, and if they were correct, then could get 10 cent an hour raises, every few weeks. They read those books when there was nothing going on.

The breakdown comes as the more self confident of the unfortunate minimum wage chainstore clerks are also often the supposed experts online now. There are no credentials to be earned. It's a performance scene now. It's going to get worse with AI, as it takes the consensus of what's said online without differentiating between levels of credibility. The people I look up to in the hobby are rarely online in this kind of venue due to trolling and squabbling. We have an excellent crew here I consistently learn from, but I can't entice the others I learn from to participate in forum life.

My bottom line? Sure, list the probable and possible sizes of fish, and provide as much info as you can. Someone may use it, and if they don't, it's their responsibility. We can't stop people who mistreat their fish from buying more. But we aren't going to resolve much here. The info is freely and easily available. What's lacking is the curiosity that makes people look for it, until they've made a few costly (to their fish) mistakes, and they come to the realization that this is complicated.