Reducing Nitrate Without Water Changes

[AbbeysDad]

Okay, thank you. So assuming nitrates aren’t great for fish and ammonia is worse... and plants favor ammonia over nitrates, How do you suggest making them both happy living together?

------
Your question suggests that you don't fully understand what beneficial biology in the 'cycled' aquarium does. Yes, plants will use ammonia as their nitrogen source - preferred over nitrates. Nitrosomonas bacteria will convert ammonia into nitrites, then Nitrospira bacteria will convert nitrite into nitrate.
So if the plants use the ammonia first, the bacteria's can't convert it to nitrite and subsequently nitrate. However, I have yet to see a case where plants processed ALL of the ammonia in an average stocked tank. I suppose it may in part be possible with a very small bio-load....but this does not take into account the other pollutants AND the need to replenish minerals.
Nitrates and other pollutants are removed by the routine periodic partial water change while at the same time minerals are replenished.
-----
In other threads, newer hobbyists have indicated that they would increase routine partial water changes if/when they began to see problems.The best parallel analogy I've seen is "I will not change the oil in my car unless or until I begin to see problems."
The obvious trouble with this logic is - then it's too late!

 

[Geigetron343]

the photos in your post do not show high-tech systems

I have a co2 tank and reactor hiding. No diffusers because it combines w/ water inline. I didn't know that it was harmful to fish... Maybe I should just convert to all plants/no fish in that tank. Don't get me wrong, I really enjoy fish, but plants were the entire purpose of that tank

Less filtration may be doable... I'm not going to buy more filters, but perhaps I can take some media out and replace with normal sponges.

Sorry the thread got off topic btw -- that wasn't my intent. Thanks for the advice!

 

[NanaWells]

Byron and Mike are quite correct.

Personal rant

I just do not see why people are reluctant to do regular water changes, I do regular 75% water changes every week, plus I do 50% water changes because Im bored or because well I dont need a reason I just do it. I always have enough pre treated water on hand to do a 50% water change.

And that includes the 100 gallon tank.

My BBG tank gets a 50% water change every 3 days, I wanted BBG's now its my responsibility to provide the best care I can.

And before anybody says anything my BBG's are almost as big as a 7 month old female Betta.

I enjoy doing the water changes my tank feels so clean and fresh and Sid seems to enjoy it

 

[AbbeysDad]

I enjoy doing the water changes my tank feels so clean and fresh and Sid seems to enjoy it

I think for some people not doing water changes (or changing too little water) is ignorance and for others it's a chore. If one is new to the hobby, maybe the benefits of the routine partial water change (and/or the dangers in not doing it) just aren't understood. If you're doing a bucket brigade, it's a chore so one could rationalize that it really doesn't need to be done and top offs are all that's really necessary!
But serious hobbyists have long since learned that the very best thing you can do is tank/filter maintenance which includes the weekly partial water change. And once you have a Python (or equivalent) and/or a pump, it sure is easy.
------
Still I dream of a drip like system so a constant supply of fresh water is delivered and waste water overflows - maybe someday.
------
Footnote: I'm all for lowering tank generated nitrates - good tank/filter/feeding practices....sand instead of gravel and plants, especially fast growing floating plants - but nothing will beat the routine partial water change to ensure the quality and consistency of the water chemistry.

 

[Geigetron343]

I think for some people not doing water changes (or changing to little water) is ignorance and for others it's a chore. If one is new to the hobby, maybe the benefits of the routine partial water change (and/or the dangers in not doing it) just aren't understood. If you're doing a bucket brigade, it's a chore so one could rationalize that it really doesn't need to be done and top offs are all that's really necessary!
But serious hobbyists have long since learned that the very best thing you can do is tank/filter maintenance which includes the weekly partial water change. And once you have a Python (or equivalent) and/or a pump, it sure is easy.
------
Still I dream of a drip like system so a constant supply of fresh water is delivered and waste water overflows - maybe someday.
------
Footnote: I'm all for lowering tank generated nitrates - good tank/filter/feeding practices....sand instead of gravel and plants, especially fast growing floating plants - but nothing will beat the routine partial water change to ensure the quality and consistency of the water chemistry.

I get it... I just thought 20-30 was a relatively safe range... I did WCs on all 3 tanks yesterday (15-20%). I'll continue to do it every week, for peace of mind if nothing else. I want happy fish

And yes... bucket brigade... it sucks! lol But i'll get a hose/"python" this week. What is the best option, and where can I find them for cheap? You also mentioned a pumice stone. Should I give that a try, or will it pull more ammo and nitrites out before the plants have a chance at them?

Drip system does sound wonderful. I'm going to look into it. Maybe a winter break project.

Thanks again, guys!

 

[AbbeysDad]

And yes... bucket brigade... it sucks! lol But i'll get a hose/"python" this week. What is the best option, and where can I find them for cheap? You also mentioned a pumice stone. Should I give that a try, or will it pull more ammo and nitrites out before the plants have a chance at them?

I'm using bio-sponge material exclusively in all my filters these days. Oh I've tried all the 'fancy' bio-medias, but finally came around to realize that sponge works every bit as good. The 'lure' of Matrix/De*Nitrate (pumice stone) is the claim that deep within the micro pores anaerobic bacteria will culture to convert nitrates into nitrogen gas. Perhaps it can be done, but I never had much luck! If I was to try again, as I mentioned, I think I'd give MarinePure's CerMedia a try.
------
You really can't control the relative size of the beneficial bacteria colony(ies) to plant mass. BB exists anywhere and everywhere in the established tank. The substrate has perhaps the greatest amount even though some hobbyists want to think that BB only lives in the filter. The only limitation is the availability of food (ammonia/nitrite) and O2. But worry not, the plants will have their fill.
------
As far as a Python, probably the least expensive will be found on Amazon or Ebay.

Drip system does sound wonderful. I'm going to look into it. Maybe a winter break project.

Thanks again, guys!

------
The challenge is the plumbing for supply and waste water and a reliable overflow. Depending on where your tank(s) is/are, it may or may not be practical.

Your welcome.

 

[AbbeysDad]

Addendum: I take it back! I am using Seachem Matrix/De*Nitrate in a DIY box filter I'm using in a 110g stock tank I setup outdoors in the spring and just recently moved into the basement:

 

[NickAu]

I enjoy doing the water changes my tank feels so clean and fresh and Sid seems to enjoy it
I think for some people not doing water changes (or changing too little water) is ignorance and for others it's a chore.

If somebody finds water changes a chore then fish keeping is not for them, maybe they should get a cat.

 

[AbbeysDad]

If somebody finds water changes a chore then fish keeping is not for them, maybe they should get a cat.

Nay nay Nick - then they'd never empty the litter box! lol

 

[Geigetron343]

I can see where the drip system could be impractical. My two 75s are less than ten feet from a sink. I should be able to split the waterline going to my fridge and route it to the tanks. As for drainage, however, I'm not really sure what I would do. Maybe put a sealed lid on a 3 gallon bucket and place it under the tank in the stand/cabinet, run the drip line down there, and just empty it once every couple of days? OR could I route a line bak to the sink drain? The tank is higher than the sink, so it could potentially work via syphon pressure, right? As far as controlling nitrates without water changes goes, the drip seems the most effective, so long as you are able to install it properly.

 

[AbbeysDad]

You can use drip irrigation parts for the drip. just need to connect to a supply line. Is your water treated? Would need an inline carbon filter to address chlorine/chloramine.
Then you need a reliable overflow. Overflow boxes are $$ and you can't drill tempered glass so DIY is a way to go. There are many Youtubes about DIY Overflows. You don't want to drain into a bucket as it's too likely to overflow so you need to run a line to the sink or a drain line.
So it can be done, but not for the faint of heart.

 

[Colin_T]

You can buy premade overflow boxes (prefilter surface skimmers with auto syphon) or make them easily with pvc pipe. However, drip water changes are not very efficient and certainly nowhere near as good as doing an actual water change by removing a quantity of water and then replacing it.

When clean water drips into a tank, it is immediately mixed with the dirty water and slowly spreads through the aquarium. At the other end water slowly flows out and away, taking with it a small amount of the stuff in the water. It takes a lot of water flowing into a tank to actually wash away nutrients and disease organisms and water dripping into a tank will not do this well. If you drain half the tank and refill it, you have instantly removed half of the nutrients in the water.

In a river the water is flowing slowly for part of the year and rapidly at other times. When it rains there is a lot of water going into the river suddenly and that flushes out a lot of the gunk in the river. If you live near a harbor or estuary you will often see the brackish/ seawater turn brown after it rains. This is from the tannins and other stuff being washed out of the rivers. This only happens when a lot of water is put into the river (when it rains). When it isn't raining, this brown water does not occur in the harbor because the water is slowly flowing through the river, much like the drip system in the aquarium.

When it rains, lots of water flows through the system removing the gunk. In an aquarium, we replicate this by draining water out and refilling the tank.

If you have water dripping into an aquarium, it does not flush out much of the gunk in the water and you waste a lot of water with little of no gain.

-----------------------
Whilst everyone has been discussing water changes to reduce nitrates and chemicals released by fish, there is another reason to do water changes. Fish live in a soup of microscopic organisms including bacteria, fungus, viruses, protozoans, worms, flukes and various other things that make your skin crawl. Doing a big water change on a regular basis will dilute these organisms and reduce their numbers in the water, thus making it a safer and healthier environment for the fish.

So if you don't want to do water changes to reduce nitrates, do it to reduce the microscopic organisms that the fish live with.

My final comment, imagine living in your house with no windows, doors, toilet, bathroom or anything. You eat and poop in the environment and have no clean air. Eventually you end up living in your own filth, which would probably be made worse by you throwing up due to the smell. You would get sick very quickly and probably die unless someone came to clean up regularly and open the place up to let in fresh air.

Fish live in their own waste. Their tank and filter is full of fish poop. The water they breath is filtered through fish poop. Cleaning filters, gravel and doing big regular water changes, removes a lot of this poop and makes the environment cleaner and healthier for the fish.

 

[AbbeysDad]

@Colin_T - I hear you. Then again, consider a drip of 1 gallon per hour, 24g/day, 168g/wk on a say 75g tank. When a weekly water change may only be 25-50% (or 20-37 gallons). Or two 25g water changes a week...?
I know of a few timer driven daily water change systems with overflows that input xx gallons daily. I think it works, just needs to be tweaked for best performance.
------
To your analogy of clean air in a home, I'd compare it to having the house closed up all week, then opening up on Saturday, vs, having a few windows open slightly all week. One might debate the merits of either.
------
Back to water changes, I opt for weekly 50%+, but when I had the 110g stock tank outside this spring/summer, I ran a pencil stream of water once or twice daily for 30 minutes that overflowed into the yard. The water stayed crystal clear and the fish all did well (the tank was also loaded with Water Sprite floating plants).
------
Now indoors, I do weekly ( or twice+ weekly on fry tanks). I use a Python hose but I added an inexpensive submersible pump (ECO 396). I use the pump to drain the tanks, then use the pump to refill with filtered water OR use a faucet adapter to refill (I indexed the hot/cold setting on the back of the faucet with a sharpie for correct temperature). It works well.
------
The bottom line is that nothing beats the routine partial water change in removing pollution and replenishing minerals...and although I typically do 50% weekly, sometimes I think 50% twice/week would be even better!