OP
OP
Thank You
Pond questions
- Thread starter Oldspartan
- Start date
OP
OP
Pond is fully opened for the summer. Raked the bottom and installed the bio filter two weeks ago.
Have been fighting hair algae for two weeks. We take it out and the next day it is back.I turned the UV system on this past Sunday but it will not fix hair algae. I finally gave in on Sunday and put a mild dose of algae side into the pond. No hair today. I employed this method last year and once the algae cleared it stayed gone. There are likely more nutrients in the water this year though and until the floaters multiply I am expecting the issue to persist.
I am adding an additional 30 sq ft to the bog and a small overflow pond, about 4 by 6 and only a foot deep. This will empty to a brook that will lead to the Willow Tree. Not certain of how much flow will be involved but if it winds up a mostly dry creek I will be ok.
Have been fighting hair algae for two weeks. We take it out and the next day it is back.I turned the UV system on this past Sunday but it will not fix hair algae. I finally gave in on Sunday and put a mild dose of algae side into the pond. No hair today. I employed this method last year and once the algae cleared it stayed gone. There are likely more nutrients in the water this year though and until the floaters multiply I am expecting the issue to persist.
I am adding an additional 30 sq ft to the bog and a small overflow pond, about 4 by 6 and only a foot deep. This will empty to a brook that will lead to the Willow Tree. Not certain of how much flow will be involved but if it winds up a mostly dry creek I will be ok.
Is the toucan a new addition?? I love him!! 
OP
OP
No, we bought him in 2020 in Manatee Florida. He was previously fronting a large conglomeration of Lilac that was destroyed by a wind blown tree.
WhistlingBadger
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Nice looking goldfish! I was just looking at New York's baitfish regulations. They're a bit confusing, and I would call the game and fish and ask to talk to a fisheries biologist before I did anything, but the "green list" in the regs contains many species that would be interesting, beautiful, and probably thrive in your pond...and they'd be a whole lot better at avoiding predators than those goldfish, too.
OP
OP
It is NEVER a good idea to involve the State of New York in any part of one's property management. My little bog and overflow might well be tagged as a wetland by DEC even though it is artificial. The pond itself would involve a permitting process and the envisioned creek would likely be regulated being as close to the Snook Kill as it is. The State of New York would enrich themselves with literally 1000's of my dollars for what amounts to a puddle that has carefully been designed to avoid any leakage from my property and actually improves the wildlife habitat while doing no damage to nature. NYS is a meddlesome nanny that thinks it always knows best. I could tell you some hair raising stories from the days we had a camp on Trident Pond in the Tupper Lake Region in the heart of the Adirondack Park. Thanks, but no Thanks.
The pond has a liner which I think is a limiting factor for many native fish although Fat Head Minnows might be a good option and are under consideration. Linda did receive some red nose minnows, 1 dozen, in trade for a group of Fat Belly Molly at a locally owned pet store chain. She has an arrangement there for her broods of Molly, Guppy and Swordtails.
The Goldfish were actually an impulse after pond completion last year. They were from the feeder stock at the afore mentioned pet store. We purchased 5 goldfish and a dozen, (I think), Rosey minnows at 20 cents each and literally dumped them in the new pond with little expectation. Shoortly thereafter the pond turned to pea soup, (I knew nothing about water care at the time, still know little I should add). That is when I connected the artesian well and installed the bio filter and UV system. After several algaecide treatments together with the filters the pond cleared and lo and behold we had 5 smallish goldfish and several minnows. In the fall we were visited by southern flying geese and they devoured all but two minnows but no golds. I think there was sufficient cover for the fish to hide at that point. All 7 fish survived the winter, and the Goldfish are now about 8 inches long and breeding, (happily in Linda's view, not so much in mine).
I will investigate some other fish but I really want to limit the population of the pond for maintenance reasons. The artificial bottom is a limiting factor and many species, such as Sunfish, I have investigated require a "dirt" bottom that would require me to make dams to hold the substrate in place and due to the depth at the shelves subject them to predation.
I do not pretend to be an expert, (Expert -- X is an unknown quantity and spurt is a drip under pressure
), so my thinking may be incorrect.In any event I am on the lookout for any ideas for other fish that will be happy in a roughly 1800-gallon pond with thin covering of blanket weed on top of a liner that has an approximate 100percent water change every 7 - 10 days and tops out at about 78 - 80F degrees, gets about 10 hours of full sun daily in the heat of summer and can survive a normal North Country winter.
I do thank You for the input and am open to suggestions that do not involve our meddling State.
OP
OP
A little story to illustrate NY State.
When we purchased our Trident Pond camp in the early 80's there was an outhouse approx. 40 feet from the shoreline. The lay of the land was sloped toward the pond and our little beach was obviously receiving a seepage of effluent. I went to the local DEC office in Ray Brook to inquire about the permitting process of installing a proper septic system. I was given a bundle of paperwork that required my hiring a lawyer to decipher and explain to me. If I proceeded attorney fees to prepare the application would be 4,000 bucks and the permitting application itself several hundred. The process was estimated to take a year, maybe two. I declined. I then went back to the DEC office and explained the current outhouse was leaching into this pristine pond and a septic system was an ideal solution, but the cost of approval was silly on top of the septic cost. They did not care, the rule was the rule and because the outhouse was existing and grandfathered, I should continue its use. I could only shake my head.
After grousing for the first year I decided to ignore the DEC and APA and install a bathroom addition and septic system. I built a small 8 by 12 shed addition a shower, toilet and small vanity. I also added a shallow well pump and connected it to the existing well in the kitchen area that had a pitcher pump attached, (added a faucet to that sink). I then rounded up a couple of buddies, rented a small tractor with backhoe attachment, bought a 300-gallon septic tank and 100 blocks. In the middle of two nights, we installed a septic system and drywell and then camouflaged the work area with pine boughs and a couple of small pine trees that we did not actually plant. On the morning we finished we went to the local diner for breakfast. I was not known yet in the area and while waiting our breakfast the waitress asked what brough us to Tupper Lake. I said I had a camp on Trident and we were here for some fishing. She smiled. When she brought our breakfast, she asked if the septic system was finished. I was appalled my secret was no secret at all. She saw the look on my face, smiled and said no worry dear, we all hate the Blue Hats up here and nobody will squeal. The DEC Rangers all wear blue hats so that is what the locals call them I learned.
Anyway, the septic system improved the water quality and was a no brainer the State should have embraced. Instead, they allow people who have their brains located in books decide the rules. No common sense involved.
When we purchased our Trident Pond camp in the early 80's there was an outhouse approx. 40 feet from the shoreline. The lay of the land was sloped toward the pond and our little beach was obviously receiving a seepage of effluent. I went to the local DEC office in Ray Brook to inquire about the permitting process of installing a proper septic system. I was given a bundle of paperwork that required my hiring a lawyer to decipher and explain to me. If I proceeded attorney fees to prepare the application would be 4,000 bucks and the permitting application itself several hundred. The process was estimated to take a year, maybe two. I declined. I then went back to the DEC office and explained the current outhouse was leaching into this pristine pond and a septic system was an ideal solution, but the cost of approval was silly on top of the septic cost. They did not care, the rule was the rule and because the outhouse was existing and grandfathered, I should continue its use. I could only shake my head.
After grousing for the first year I decided to ignore the DEC and APA and install a bathroom addition and septic system. I built a small 8 by 12 shed addition a shower, toilet and small vanity. I also added a shallow well pump and connected it to the existing well in the kitchen area that had a pitcher pump attached, (added a faucet to that sink). I then rounded up a couple of buddies, rented a small tractor with backhoe attachment, bought a 300-gallon septic tank and 100 blocks. In the middle of two nights, we installed a septic system and drywell and then camouflaged the work area with pine boughs and a couple of small pine trees that we did not actually plant. On the morning we finished we went to the local diner for breakfast. I was not known yet in the area and while waiting our breakfast the waitress asked what brough us to Tupper Lake. I said I had a camp on Trident and we were here for some fishing. She smiled. When she brought our breakfast, she asked if the septic system was finished. I was appalled my secret was no secret at all. She saw the look on my face, smiled and said no worry dear, we all hate the Blue Hats up here and nobody will squeal. The DEC Rangers all wear blue hats so that is what the locals call them I learned.
Anyway, the septic system improved the water quality and was a no brainer the State should have embraced. Instead, they allow people who have their brains located in books decide the rules. No common sense involved.
It's been 40 years since I last heard that sayingI do not pretend to be an expert, (Expert -- X is an unknown quantity and spurt is a drip under pressure
WhistlingBadger
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Your story sounds like something my friends in California would tell. Stuff like that always makes me sad. We have our share of stupid rules and fussy bureaucrats out here in the west, but overall I think the nannies tend to rise to the surface of states with immense numbers of people. In rural states we tend to get the "if you're not killing anybody you're probably OK" attitude, at least from most of the state agencies (Uncle Sam is another story, although the BLM is pretty easy to get along with. That's good, because they administer about a third of our state).
But of course the downfall to all that individual liberty is that many in-duh-viduals don't have the responsibility to be trusted with that sort of freedom. The only reason it works is we just don't have that many people running around screwing things up. But when somebody is trying to do the right thing and they can't because of foolish and inflexible rules? That makes me sad. There should be some sort of balance.
Anyway, a couple more thoughts about the pond:
Have you considered covering your pond liner with rocks? Have someone haul in a pickup load of smallish river rock (there's probably a quarry or cement plant nearby that sells it), hire a couple of neighborhood kids to put them in, one layer deep. Our old pond had a rubber bottom lined with stones this way (I did all the work myself because I'm an idiot), and that one layer of stones drastically increased the wildlife value for fish, bugs, volunteer aquatic plants, and even frogs.
Also, we kept bluegills in our pond. Despite the rubber bottom, they thrived and bred like little bunnies. They'd clear a breeding next down to bare rubber, and get to work. Eventually they all winter killed because there were so many of them that even the bass, garter snakes, herons, and the Badgerling's cane pole couldn't keep them under control. But they were sure a lot of fun while they lasted.
Point is, you'd probably be fine with some sunfish.
But of course the downfall to all that individual liberty is that many in-duh-viduals don't have the responsibility to be trusted with that sort of freedom. The only reason it works is we just don't have that many people running around screwing things up. But when somebody is trying to do the right thing and they can't because of foolish and inflexible rules? That makes me sad. There should be some sort of balance.
Anyway, a couple more thoughts about the pond:
Have you considered covering your pond liner with rocks? Have someone haul in a pickup load of smallish river rock (there's probably a quarry or cement plant nearby that sells it), hire a couple of neighborhood kids to put them in, one layer deep. Our old pond had a rubber bottom lined with stones this way (I did all the work myself because I'm an idiot), and that one layer of stones drastically increased the wildlife value for fish, bugs, volunteer aquatic plants, and even frogs.
Also, we kept bluegills in our pond. Despite the rubber bottom, they thrived and bred like little bunnies. They'd clear a breeding next down to bare rubber, and get to work. Eventually they all winter killed because there were so many of them that even the bass, garter snakes, herons, and the Badgerling's cane pole couldn't keep them under control. But they were sure a lot of fun while they lasted.
Point is, you'd probably be fine with some sunfish.
OP
OP
Do not misunderstand me ….. Some regulation is necessary to protect community space. Far to often, at least in N Y, we have city folk with alphabet behind names who develope rules without applying common sense.
Northern NY, and by that I mean from Warrensburg, the State in no way resembles the people who rule it. Good or bad depends on perspective. The perspective of those to our south is normally at odds with those of us subject to the regulations.
It is what it is and many of develop common sense work around.
What they need is common sense and most don't have it. Below are 3 examples and I have hundreds I can complain about but won't because it pushes my blood pressure up.
eg: There is an endangered species of fish (salamanderfish) living in the south-west of WA. There's not many left and they are going to die when it stops raining down that way. The government also paved over a lot of there habitat in 2016 to make the roads wider and safer. I got arrested and charged with translocating fish in a national park when I moved some of the fish out of the ponds that were about to be filled in, and transported them to ponds that weren't going to be covered in asphalt. The government was quite happy to kill them and was totally against me saving them even though they are endangered.
There's another fish (Galaxias truttaceus) down that way that is endangered and people have been releasing introduced species into the lake where it lives. I got done for taking rosy barbs out of the lake because it's in a national park. Rosy barbs are not native to Australia but the moron rangers were going to fine me to taking fish from a national park even though I was removing introduced species that were threatening endangered native species. They eventually gave up when I said "see you in court then duckheads" (change the u to an i).
Gambusia are an introduced species here. Twenty years ago we could catch and sell them as live fish food. There were a number of collectors around Perth and we would take around 10-20,000 out of the water ways each week (between us). The govment made Gambusia a noxious species. Nobody is allowed to collect them and sell them. If you catch them you must kill them on the bank where they are caught. Nobody is collecting them anymore and their numbers are building up to massive levels. I wrote to the govment about this last year asking what they are doing to control Gambusia because their numbers are higher than they have ever been and native species are disappearing from local waterways. The govment fellas said they are working on a solution. I said you have been working on a solution for 20 years and haven't done squat. All they have to do is let people catch and sell them as food again and we can get the numbers back down and keep them down until the govment actually works out what it's going to do about them.
eg: There is an endangered species of fish (salamanderfish) living in the south-west of WA. There's not many left and they are going to die when it stops raining down that way. The government also paved over a lot of there habitat in 2016 to make the roads wider and safer. I got arrested and charged with translocating fish in a national park when I moved some of the fish out of the ponds that were about to be filled in, and transported them to ponds that weren't going to be covered in asphalt. The government was quite happy to kill them and was totally against me saving them even though they are endangered.
There's another fish (Galaxias truttaceus) down that way that is endangered and people have been releasing introduced species into the lake where it lives. I got done for taking rosy barbs out of the lake because it's in a national park. Rosy barbs are not native to Australia but the moron rangers were going to fine me to taking fish from a national park even though I was removing introduced species that were threatening endangered native species. They eventually gave up when I said "see you in court then duckheads" (change the u to an i).
Gambusia are an introduced species here. Twenty years ago we could catch and sell them as live fish food. There were a number of collectors around Perth and we would take around 10-20,000 out of the water ways each week (between us). The govment made Gambusia a noxious species. Nobody is allowed to collect them and sell them. If you catch them you must kill them on the bank where they are caught. Nobody is collecting them anymore and their numbers are building up to massive levels. I wrote to the govment about this last year asking what they are doing to control Gambusia because their numbers are higher than they have ever been and native species are disappearing from local waterways. The govment fellas said they are working on a solution. I said you have been working on a solution for 20 years and haven't done squat. All they have to do is let people catch and sell them as food again and we can get the numbers back down and keep them down until the govment actually works out what it's going to do about them.
OP
OP
One story then I am done with this because it is more depressing than amusing.
In 1987, or 1988, the State decided to close a road into Crane Pond, a touch north of Schroon Lake. The road was about 5 miles long and required a 4 x 4 with decent ground clearance. There stated reason was it bordered the Pharoah Forever Wild wilderness. Bordered mind you. The locals took extreme umbrage.
The road was closed by dumping several large truck loads of gravel. The gravel threatened to choke the brook that led to the Schroon River. The locals cleared the road. The State reapplied the gravel. A rinse repeat ensued maybe three more times. The final time the APA announced on such and such a date they would again dump gravel with a State Police presence. Now the locals are rough and tumble lumberjacks and other hearty souls. These are not city folk that bear foolishness.
On the appointed day the gravel trucks with State police escort arrived at the road to find it blocked by dozers, skidders and various equipment. Behind the equipment were more than a dozen armed men. In the end the trucks and police left. Shortly after the Gov announced that because the road offered the disabled access to the pond it would remain open.
The many many yards of gravel that were dumped? Each time the locals removed the pile they used it to improve the access. Crane Pond can be driven to using a soccer mobile.
That is it for me on the subject of foolish government interference.
In 1987, or 1988, the State decided to close a road into Crane Pond, a touch north of Schroon Lake. The road was about 5 miles long and required a 4 x 4 with decent ground clearance. There stated reason was it bordered the Pharoah Forever Wild wilderness. Bordered mind you. The locals took extreme umbrage.
The road was closed by dumping several large truck loads of gravel. The gravel threatened to choke the brook that led to the Schroon River. The locals cleared the road. The State reapplied the gravel. A rinse repeat ensued maybe three more times. The final time the APA announced on such and such a date they would again dump gravel with a State Police presence. Now the locals are rough and tumble lumberjacks and other hearty souls. These are not city folk that bear foolishness.
On the appointed day the gravel trucks with State police escort arrived at the road to find it blocked by dozers, skidders and various equipment. Behind the equipment were more than a dozen armed men. In the end the trucks and police left. Shortly after the Gov announced that because the road offered the disabled access to the pond it would remain open.
The many many yards of gravel that were dumped? Each time the locals removed the pile they used it to improve the access. Crane Pond can be driven to using a soccer mobile.
That is it for me on the subject of foolish government interference.
OP
OP
Back to the pond. The bog extension was dug this morning. I really had the old banjo singing a tune. The new section is a bit lower than the existing bog and I will need to make some adjustments so the original does not drain to fast. I am using rocks and peat to do that and also increasing the flow a little from the artesian well into the pond. Almost got it and will let things settle overnight before final adjustments.
One order of pond plants arrived, frog it, spangles and more red root. The remainder come tomorrow and Friday.
Final job will be the narrow creek to the Willow tree. I am hoping the willow will absorb the minor flow. If not I will send the water a bit further down and let it naturalize in a corner.
One order of pond plants arrived, frog it, spangles and more red root. The remainder come tomorrow and Friday.
Final job will be the narrow creek to the Willow tree. I am hoping the willow will absorb the minor flow. If not I will send the water a bit further down and let it naturalize in a corner.
OP
OP
Pond work is basically complete. I do need to dress the margins of the extended bog and the stream bed but that is mostly Linda work except for the rocks. We will minimize the rocks due to the fact I am running out of them in reasonably simple places to get them on the property, so we have decided to create a miniature tree fall bordering the area.
The beginnings of the bog extention and rock dam to help regulate flow. The depression is about 12 inches deep and will be a puddle that overflows the side a touch.The bare ground will be lined with peat, sand and clay mix to retain moisture and planted with creeping jenny. The area with rocks will be covered with a thin layer of clay/sand mixture and planted with gold rush and zebra grass.
A picture of the stream bed under construction. It will be about 18 inches wide and depending on how much controlled water flow I can get will have a layer of our dirt mixture with some boulders and smaller rocks strewn in randomly. The margins will have arrow, wild strawberry and perhaps some juniper bush.
Here we have some of the original bog. Buster is on duty ensuring the frogs stay put and do not interrupt Linda and I as we labor. It also gives an overview of the entire water garden.
This is the landing at the stairs leading to our pond area. I used a grinder and muriatic acid to etch Welcome to our Life with a crude happy face. A bit of whimsy just for fun.
The walkway edging the pond margin and leading to what is currently a wood deck that will be eventually topped with a screened in gazebo to the right. To the left it leads to a patio that fronts our fire pit and wood grilling area. The home of a future pergola.
The pond has come alive. The dark spots in the photo are large polliwogs, many smaller ones are also present. There are also several lizards inhabiting the rock margins, and the new minnows are happily swimming with the goldfish. The overflow pond has become a goldfish nursury. Linda scooped about two dozen goldfish fry from the main pond and inserted them into the overflow pond. They are happily swimming but likely subject to predation. I do not need more children but they make Linda smile. Above water we have chipmunks, squirrels, and an excellent variety of birds flitting about. The critters have adjusted to our presence and are comfortable going about their business while we sit on the deck observing their behaviors.
This project is very nearly finished. It is down to basically capping various areas with soil mixtures and doing the plantings. Linda planted cattails, bull rush and some more flag iris in the original bog yesterday. I shored up the rock and peat dam and began playing with water volume from the artesian well. Monday Irish Moss and Thyme will be planted between the steppingstones by Linda while I begin laying down the dead fall and rockery at the new bog and stream bed. We believe this project will be completed by the end of next week.
The beginnings of the bog extention and rock dam to help regulate flow. The depression is about 12 inches deep and will be a puddle that overflows the side a touch.The bare ground will be lined with peat, sand and clay mix to retain moisture and planted with creeping jenny. The area with rocks will be covered with a thin layer of clay/sand mixture and planted with gold rush and zebra grass.
A picture of the stream bed under construction. It will be about 18 inches wide and depending on how much controlled water flow I can get will have a layer of our dirt mixture with some boulders and smaller rocks strewn in randomly. The margins will have arrow, wild strawberry and perhaps some juniper bush.
Here we have some of the original bog. Buster is on duty ensuring the frogs stay put and do not interrupt Linda and I as we labor. It also gives an overview of the entire water garden.
This is the landing at the stairs leading to our pond area. I used a grinder and muriatic acid to etch Welcome to our Life with a crude happy face. A bit of whimsy just for fun.
The walkway edging the pond margin and leading to what is currently a wood deck that will be eventually topped with a screened in gazebo to the right. To the left it leads to a patio that fronts our fire pit and wood grilling area. The home of a future pergola.
The pond has come alive. The dark spots in the photo are large polliwogs, many smaller ones are also present. There are also several lizards inhabiting the rock margins, and the new minnows are happily swimming with the goldfish. The overflow pond has become a goldfish nursury. Linda scooped about two dozen goldfish fry from the main pond and inserted them into the overflow pond. They are happily swimming but likely subject to predation. I do not need more children but they make Linda smile. Above water we have chipmunks, squirrels, and an excellent variety of birds flitting about. The critters have adjusted to our presence and are comfortable going about their business while we sit on the deck observing their behaviors.
This project is very nearly finished. It is down to basically capping various areas with soil mixtures and doing the plantings. Linda planted cattails, bull rush and some more flag iris in the original bog yesterday. I shored up the rock and peat dam and began playing with water volume from the artesian well. Monday Irish Moss and Thyme will be planted between the steppingstones by Linda while I begin laying down the dead fall and rockery at the new bog and stream bed. We believe this project will be completed by the end of next week.
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