Ph Dropping

[Aqua Tom]

I just checked it again. 4 hours after last check.

Its between 7.5 & 8 now.

 

[KittyKat]

Which tests are you using? They could just be not very accurate.

 

[Aqua Tom]

Nutrafin liquid based master test kit.


It has always been very accurate up to now.

 

[drobbyb]

Just toss in some baking soda like stated above, or just do a water change and recharge on the ammonia.

 

[waterdrop]

Yes, a couple of years ago I used to worry about the details of whether to up the pH with baking soda or whether to do it with water changes but I've come to feel it is not a very big deal one way or the other.

First of all we should be clear for the other beginners what's happening: toward the end of a fishless cycle the 5ppm dosing is coming fast and furious and both species of bacteria are processing nearly all of it within 12 hours. This produces a lot more nitrate(NO3) and about 7% of that takes the form of nitric acid, a strong acid that can use up all the buffering in the tank if the carbonate hardness is not quite high. So even tanks that have not had pH drop earlier in the fishless cycle may start to have a serious pH drop (and of course most fishless cyclers have learned that a pH down to 6.2 stalls and then stops processing at about 6.0.)

More and larger water changes (eg. on weekends) are a nice way to bring the pH back up if your tap water has enough carbonate hardness (KH) and often this will take you on through to the end of the fishless cycle. As Kat writes, this can help you need less water changing at the transition to having fish (It can take more than one full gravel-clean-water-change to get all the bicarb out of the water and gravel and get you back closer to your tap water chemistry.)

On the other hand, a couple of complete water changes in a row (with no more baking soda being put back in the tank) should make it ready for fish when the time comes by getting all the nitrate and bicarb out of the tank. Bicarb is really nice for getting the pH up in the 8.0 to 8.4 neighborhood and the bacteria do seem to really respond to this, even more so than some of our other tweaks. So I've become somewhat less cautious about bicarb and recommend going ahead and using it.

~~waterdrop~~
ps. re the quoting discussion, one habit I've used for many years that's easy is to just drop in a little "<...>" when I shorten a quoted post. I do feel its good to shorten them to just the stuff that's under consideration.

 

[Aqua Tom]

Yes, a couple of years ago I used to worry about the details of whether to up the pH with baking soda or whether to do it with water changes but I've come to feel it is not a very big deal one way or the other.

First of all we should be clear for the other beginners what's happening: toward the end of a fishless cycle the 5ppm dosing is coming fast and furious and both species of bacteria are processing nearly all of it within 12 hours. This produces a lot more nitrate(NO3) and about 7% of that takes the form of nitric acid, a strong acid that can use up all the buffering in the tank if the carbonate hardness is not quite high. So even tanks that have not had pH drop earlier in the fishless cycle may start to have a serious pH drop (and of course most fishless cyclers have learned that a pH down to 6.2 stalls and then stops processing at about 6.0.)

More and larger water changes (eg. on weekends) are a nice way to bring the pH back up if your tap water has enough carbonate hardness (KH) and often this will take you on through to the end of the fishless cycle. As Kat writes, this can help you need less water changing at the transition to having fish (It can take more than one full gravel-clean-water-change to get all the bicarb out of the water and gravel and get you back closer to your tap water chemistry.)

On the other hand, a couple of complete water changes in a row (with no more baking soda being put back in the tank) should make it ready for fish when the time comes by getting all the nitrate and bicarb out of the tank. Bicarb is really nice for getting the pH up in the 8.0 to 8.4 neighborhood and the bacteria do seem to really respond to this, even more so than some of our other tweaks. So I've become somewhat less cautious about bicarb and recommend going ahead and using it.

~~waterdrop~~
ps. re the quoting discussion, one habit I've used for many years that's easy is to just drop in a little "<...>" when I shorten a quoted post. I do feel its good to shorten them to just the stuff that's under consideration.

Thanks WD. The ph seems to have stabalised at betwwen 7.5 and 8 so i am going to call it 7.7. What dosage of bicarb do I need to bring it back up to 8.2? It is a 180 litre tank.

 

[the biffster]

so the bicarb helped in
getting the pH back to
were it needed to be i am
glad it work and your cycle
is on its way again

 

[Aqua Tom]

so the bicarb helped in
getting the pH back to
were it needed to be i am
glad it work and your cycle
is on its way again

Nope, I havnt added it yet. I am waiting for the dosage information. The PH seems to have stabilised all by itself at 7.7.

 

[the biffster]

so the bicarb helped in
getting the pH back to
were it needed to be i am
glad it work and your cycle
is on its way again

Nope, I havnt added it yet. I am waiting for the dosage information. The PH seems to have stabilised all by itself at 7.7.

strange that

 

[Aqua Tom]

so the bicarb helped in
getting the pH back to
were it needed to be i am
glad it work and your cycle
is on its way again

Nope, I havnt added it yet. I am waiting for the dosage information. The PH seems to have stabilised all by itself at 7.7.

strange that

Very odd

 

[waterdrop]

Dosing bicarb can only bring it up to the 8 range, not beyond, it is not continuous, which makes it safer, but you of course really don't want any more excess sodium in there than needed to achieve the result. My usual recommendation is to try an in-between amount like 2 teaspoons per 50L since we know that 1 teaspoon would probably raise KH without raising pH.

Remember though, a slow cycle is a good cycle, so patience is really the key ingredient to being a good fishkeeper. If you look at the bigger picture, fish in nature are used to having thousands of gallons per fish of constantly refreshed water, which is a huge contrast to the tiny artificial puddles we are providing. We make up for many of the problems with our attention and intelligence, but we don't really have to means to provide the fresh, sunny, sparkling home that nature does.

The other great thing about gravel-clean-water-change weekends during the 3rd phase of the fishless cycle is that they give the beginner repeated hands-on practice with the practical details of carrying this out after they have a working tank with fish. The more familiar and comfortable you make this, the less likely you will be to not do it under the pressure of other social obligations.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[Aqua Tom]

I think I will go out a get some bi-carb later today & chuck it in the tank. i dont realy want to do a water change untill I have got my double zeros & completed qualifying.

 

[waterdrop]

I assume you are saying this because the water changing is a lot of labor, which is fine. If you are saying it because you think you are optimizing the fishless cycle then I probably disagree. As far as the bacteria are concerned it can never hurt to get a whole new tank of tap water with fresh ammonia and bicarb. The fresh tap water can provide some of the trace things the cells use, like calcium and magnesium.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[Aqua Tom]

I assume you are saying this because the water changing is a lot of labor, which is fine. If you are saying it because you think you are optimizing the fishless cycle then I probably disagree. As far as the bacteria are concerned it can never hurt to get a whole new tank of tap water with fresh ammonia and bicarb. The fresh tap water can provide some of the trace things the cells use, like calcium and magnesium.

~~waterdrop~~

I was saying to "optimize" as you put it. ok then, time to change the water.

 

[waterdrop]

Although let me elaborate to say that I am indeed thinking of the "weekend change" type of thing. Going crazy and changing water every day or something like a fish-in cycle would not be right for a fishless cycle as the readings you take will constantly not make sense and there is some feeling among us that the bacteria sometimes take some hours or a day to settle back in to production after a big water change, so a whole lot of water changes might keep you in a constant state of flux in that sense too.

~~waterdrop~~