Panda Worries

[arobinson1984]

Personally I would remove the activated carbon anyway as its not needed on a daily occurance in your filter and is normally only effective for a few days. Carbons main purpose is to remove colour tannins and medications from the water but after 2-3 days it becomes ineffective. I think you would benefit more from having an extra course sponge in your filter instead for bacteria to grow on, preferably a mature sponge if you can find a donator.

I think you are prob still right at the start of your cycle and as already mentioned, the fish you have are low waste producers so the cycle is prob slow starting. I'd recommend rehoming the panda's as they are sensitive fish and doing a fishless cycle with ammonia, but its up to you. If you decide to keep the fish and carry on with a fish-in cycle then you will need to do daily water changes, and 20% won't be any good. You need to be changing 50% at a time.

Keeps us informed how things are going

Andy

 

[IzzysGuppies]

Hi,
Got up and did another reading this morning, still 0.25 ammonia 0 Nitrite, so squeezed in a 20% water change, somehow managed to test at lunch time and got the same so did another 20% change. This mornings one I literally just changed the water, the lunch time one I shoved my fingers in the gravel and wiggled a few times, but not alot. (not much time when I have an hour to get home, jog with dogs, clear up garden, try and eat something and get back - without trying to sort out fish too!) When doing these frequent changes, should I be doing the gravel each time as well?
I had stirred up much more on Monday as I finally got to grips woth the gravel cleaner, and as I removed one of the ornaments (the one where the sanils had been hiding) snail poo fell like snow throught the water, can't really believe how much poo 3 tiny sanils could produce!

I am desperately hoping that it is more of a blip due to this rather than anything more sinister.

Andy, this is my first ammonia since starting to test the tank just before we added fish. So as 'Jane Blogs' 'off the street', had thought i had cycled the tank before adding fish - had done plent of reading, just not found this forum!

About to go and have another look at the water and I'll let you know the readings.
Then I've got to get the girls and feed them before being back out at 6pm! Wednesdays a bit like Mondays for hecticness!

Many thanks and i'll let you know.
Lisa

 

[IzzysGuppies]

Well, got 0.25 or maybe a bit under for ammonia, and 0ppm for Nitrites, so did another 20% change.
20% is a good amount for me for the size of the bucket etc, but if it really should be more then let me know, but this is the 3rd 20% today.
got to get the tea, but help is still appreciated.

Thanks
Lisa.

 

[waterdrop]

Hi friends,

Got bored and decided to read through this long thread to see what it was all about. Certainly seems MW and Andy have diagnosed things correctly and have things under control, so I'll just throw in my 2 cents to add weight to what they've already been over.

Seems pretty clear this is a straight-forward fish-in cycling situation, started in to from typical LFS mis-information. The tank currently seems to be giving the normal feedback for a fish-in cycle where Izzy is doing a fair number of water changes. In that situation the water changes will often mask the small blips that tell you its not really cycled yet. Then they unexpectedly show up again later. My other observation is that Izzy may still be getting the hang of the gravel-cleaning skill and may not have been doing it as frequently or as thoroughly as would have been ideal, so its indeed possible that gravel-cleanings are still kicking up enough debris to produce detectable ammonia/nitrite(NO2) despite the cycling being fairly far along.

To me, if anything, the gravel-clean-water-changes could perhaps be a little larger and more definate in this situation. Its only a 10g so it should not be an onerous task to gravel-clean thoroughly enough that 50 or 60% of the water gets taken out. We should also perhaps be clear that the return water needs a good conditioner, Seachem Prime or API StressCoat+ or Amquel+ or whatever, but definately a conditioner and it should be fully dosed per instructions or even 1.5x or 2x instructed dose. The return water should be roughly temperature matched (your hand is good enough) especially since the tank is small and the fish sensitive.

As stated previously, the goal of fish-in cycling is to be a detective and figure out what percentage and frequency of water changes will allow ammonia and nitrite(NO2) to always stay below 0.25ppm by the time the water can be next tested and potentially another water change performed. More changes are better than less in these situations and good gravel cleans with these changes will just make things better and better for the fish. The end is reached when you notice you can go two days with no water change but getting double-zeros for your results and then you watch that be repeated for a week. After that you can lighten up on your testing and consider small stocking increases.

I believe if one observes really closely or even squeezes the chips, one can discern the difference between carbon and zeolite but zeolite can masquerade as carbon after it gets dirty with biofilms and debris and can thus be easily mistaken for carbon. Definately want to just be working the carbon/zeo stuff out bit by bit with replacements of ceramic gravel, sponges or other optimal biomedia. Doing media alterations at the same time as you are still fish-in cycling inevitably slows down the fish-in cycle.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[IzzysGuppies]

Thanks waterdrop,
although it may seem like longer, I haven't yet had the fishes 2 weeks. although the tank has been set up with plants and bog wood etc for almost 4. I did the first water change about a week after getting the fish, can't remember the exact reasons I put an extra water change in, but did one on Monday which is when I did work out for sure how the gravel vac worked - shove it down into the gravel a lot more!, I know its only a small tank, but with dogs trying to drink the water as it comes out, and being petrified about vacuuming a fish, the first one probably wasnt my best! My second one took just as long, almost an hour and a half, but was more vigrousby far. Until I had done this I had been getting constant 0ppm readings for both ammonia and nitrite. Nitrite is still 0. New water is treated with nutrafin plus

I did go and look in my closest lfs and found some zeolite/carbon filters, and what I have in mine is totally different. The black bits are cylindrical and look like what I have googled in images for activated carbon. The instructions with the filter says something like activated carbon in zeolite casing, but their web site doesn't mention zeolite and the case these black bits are in looks plastic. I will get in touch with someone soon though to do with donation of media and swap it over.

I do still have to go out at 6, but I am no longer out again after that, so will check again and if needsbe do a further and larger water change with a gravel vac too. Just means Izzy will be late to bed, as the tank is in her room!

Getting a bit close to 6, so best round up the troups and get out the door!
I'll check back in later.
Lisa

link to something that looks a bit like mine.
http/fastfishfood.com/WebRoot/StoreDaily...tedcarbon_m.jpg
http/joejaworski.files.wordpress.com/200...w=300&h=199 half way down article

 

[waterdrop]

Hi Lisa,

You'll get the details of your gravelcleanwaterchange worked out. Mine only tank about a half hour on a 28g. Yes, that looks like just carbon and not zeolite so MW's hunch must have been right. Good luck with it!

~~waterdrop~~

 

[Miss Wiggle]

Hi,

Yeah I think it definately looks like you are in a fish-in cycle now and it was just slow to start because of the small amount of waste being produced by the fish that you have.

As above you may find you need to do larger water changes but if the 20% suits you then that can be done a couple of times a day, personally I find it easier to do one large change rather than a few small one's, it's also a bit more effective as when you do a second change for the day some of the water you take out will be the new clean stuff, so two 50% water changes actually adds up to one 75% change not one 100% change!

basically though the goal is to keep ammonia and nitrite below 0.25ppm, do whatever water changes you need to keep it down below this level.

 

[IzzysGuppies]

Hi, just thought I'd do an update on tank and fishes.
I've settled into a daily 40% waterchange and gravel vac, and the stats have remained the same for the last week and a half which are:
pH 7.8
Nitrate 10ppm
Nitrite 0ppm
Ammonia was just under 0.25 and has gone down, but not quite lovely yellow yet!
I am awaiting the nice yellow colour with bated breath, but I believe I will then get the nitrites showing up!?

The fish are doing really well, the original few snails I fished out, left a pressie of many babies, I thought I'd got all the eggs, and had seen just a handful of new babies, then moved the same ornament the first lot had hidden in, (which has been lifted out daily for the waterchanges) and had tiny sized snail poo snow effect!! The ornamnent has remained on a rather hot windowsill ever since, and my curiosity over the snails is well and truly over, though the hunt is still on as the guppies love freshly squished snail! Many appologies to any snail lovers out there!
Not seen any snails today at all.

I did find something else in the tank tonight, and I'm not sure if it was alive, but I did fish out a spider, it had a body about 5mm long with long legs all a silver colour. Is this normal? do you get aquatic spiders? are they ok?

Also...... a night for questions I'm afraid! Do guppies nip? I've not seen any real aggression from them, but a while a go spot appeared to have a chunk missing from one of her pectoral fins and I was concerned about fin rot, but it didn't get any worse and has now fully grown back, now dot has only a stump for one of her back pectoral/pelvic fins, these are only tiny fins anyway, but I only noticed it today, and I feel I do a rather good fish watch every day checking them over. It doesn't seem to be stopping her from doing anything, and both pandas seem to be feeding well, but all 4 fish do sometimes go after the same bit of wafer, so wonder if something could have happened, the guppies mouths seem to be quite big now!!

And.............
As the tank is cycling its giving us lots of time to think about what next when all is well and happy with a fully cycled tank! We'd like to end up with 6 guppies and 6 pandas, but when in Pets at Home at the weekend for other stuff, I spotted what they are calling butterfly plecs, now I have found what they are on here and elsewhere on the internet and appear to be hillstream loaches, and I'm not sure that we'd be able to provide what they need, but is there something else that doesn't grow too big that may be suitable to go in our 60l that sucks the glass in a similar way, they were fascinating. I've wondered about the bristle nose, but didn't know if one of these would push the stocking too far?

Thanks again for everyones help and sorry about the new questions! but after the start we had I want to quiz all and sundry before carrying on with any thinking!!

Lisa

 

[Rediahs]

Otos (otocinclus) stick to the glass with a sucker mouth, is that what you mean? I think otos are so very cute. They are small enough for your tank. But they are really sensitive to the water quality, the way your corys were, so your cycle probably needs to be top notch before you can add otos.

 

[IzzysGuppies]

Thanks Chrissi,
I've taken a look at the ottos, they are quite cute. It was the being able to see everything going on in the loaches body as they clung to the glass that drew my initial interest. Ottos are a contender, but I have also found Pitbull Plecs which are small and may be suitable too being quite a bit smaller than the bristle nose plecs. Ho hum, I've a while to keep thinking!

Thanks again,
Lisa

 

[IzzysGuppies]

Hooray!!! Yellow result for Ammonia!!! 0ppm at last.
Nitrites still 0
Yesterday did Nirates too which was still 10ppm and ph was still 7.8

Now I have relief over the ammonia, I guess I need to keep an extra close watch on the nitrites now!
Thanks again,
Lisa.

 

[waterdrop]

Congrats Lisa!

 

[IzzysGuppies]

Thanks for that Waterdrop.
I've tested the tank 2ce today and still ammonia 0ppm and Nitrite 0ppm both times.

Is there normally a delay between ammonia going to 0 and Nitrite showing? if so what kind of delay? or is that like asking how longs a piece of string?
I did go looking at another lfs today which turned out to be a bit closer than I thought, only 20 mins drive away, and on the whole I liked what I saw. Came back with some more plants - all tropical ones!! want them to be established before my non tropical ones are likely to die off!
Just hope they don't upset the cycle too much. Got a Vallis, 2 Amazon Swords and 2 shorter plants for the front of the tank, that I can't remember the name of!

It will be just over a week before they get some more male guppies in, so that should work out ok timing wise, they also have panda corys when we're ready to expand the shoal of them, and they have pitbul plecs, so hopefully I'll be a happy mum in the weeks to come with a happyIzzy toboot!

Thanks again,
Lisa.

 

[waterdrop]

In fish-in cycling when you first start hitting days when you've got zeros on both ammonia and nitrite you want to be cautious and just see what's going to happen next. I'd go a week like that rather than adding fish.

Looking back at your thread its pretty hard to come across cycling data. Do you feel you've been fish-in cycling for 4 weeks yet? Also couldn't remember what we decided about zeolite, any weeks with zeolite in the filter might not count.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[IzzysGuppies]

Hi WaterDrop,
I'd say I've had the tank with water in for 7 weeks. the 2 guppies and 2 cories were added after almost 2 weeks, then it was about 3 days before I realised the chlorine mess up, so I guess the tank couldn't cycle until the water conditioner was put in. It has been almost 4 weeks since having the water conditioner in there.
Even if readings remain ok, I can't get the guppies from that particular shop until Tuesday week, fish order goes in on one Tuesday and they get them the next. Not sure I'd want them straight after their arrival so it would probably be the Friday or Sat that I'd them after that.

We decided there was no zeolite, just activated carbon. I have bought some more foam to replace the carbon with, but not done it yet as I was worried about disturbing things.

I think I'm a bit paranoid about the nitrite as I haven't had a reading for it since adding the fish. There was a very slight nitrite reading when the fish were first added. I've had plants in the whole time. There has been no nitrite since 27th May Ammonia started on 2nd June at 0.25 or maybe v slightly over that, then was below this , dropping all the time in the last week as far as I could tell, until yesterday when it went that lovely yellow!
I hope this is enough info.
many thanks,
Lisa