Ooooh...don't touch that fish, it's diseased/inbred/etc.!

[Bruce Leyland-Jones]

So, back on topic...

I'm yet to see ANY solid evidence that the so-called Dwarf Gourami Virus exists, or that guppies are so inbred they have all manner of issues.
What I have seen too much evidence of is still poor tank maintenance and fish care, especially, not not exclusively, amongst people new to the hobby.
What is also apparent, is the readiness of too many to play amateur fish vet. and to 'diagnose' an illness, rather than honestly reflect on poor tank maintenance and fish care, as the cause of fish demise.

Whilst I have no info regarding the aforementioned conditions overseas, here in Blighty, there's a strong suggestion that at least DGV is not as prevalent as the internet would have us believe.

 

[itiwhetu]

So, back on topic...

I'm yet to see ANY solid evidence that the so-called Dwarf Gourami Virus exists, or that guppies are so inbred they have all manner of issues.
What I have seen too much evidence of is still poor tank maintenance and fish care, especially, not not exclusively, amongst people new to the hobby.
What is also apparent, is the readiness of too many to play amateur fish vet. and to 'diagnose' an illness, rather than honestly reflect on poor tank maintenance and fish care, as the cause of fish demise.

Whilst I have no info regarding the aforementioned conditions overseas, here in Blighty, there's a strong suggestion that at least DGV is not as prevalent as the internet would have us believe.

I set up a tank a few years ago to prove that guppies were fine and would breed through multiple generations. I bought in twenty fish and set up a 250 liter tank and them go for it. The first two generations were a little dodgy but then things settled down. All good. I agree to a certain extent with you, but Dwarf Gouramis I have always had problems with, obtaining females is almost impossible and the male fish you get seem to burn themselves out. If I could have got them to breed I think that the same would have happened as with the guppies, a couple of dodgy generations and then all back to normal.

 

[Bruce Leyland-Jones]

...but Dwarf Gouramis I have always had problems with, obtaining females is almost impossible...

Apparently, the dumbfool masses only want males because they're pretty and the ladies aren't, so the shops oblige them.
For myself, when I set up my SE Asian tank, I have two shops who will include some female Dwarf Gourami for me in their order.

 

[Back in the fold]

@Bruce Leyland-Jones I have heard all the concerns you mention about certain fish and I used to believe those things. You should be able to spot a diseased fish. Nothing hard about that. Inbred is another story. I think that certain species were healthier and more vigorous in the olden days, most notably the Dwarf Gourami. Your question has made me think, something I rarely do. In the case of the Dwarf Gourami I have heard that the big breeders won't sell females because they fear competition from hobbyist breeders. That does not seem likely. Those guys are so big you'd have to really be big yourself to be any threat to their stranglehold on the market. I think they just want to sell lots of colorful males and in doing that they don't cull as ruthlessly as they should and you see all the runts and deformed ones that never made it into the dealers tanks before. Many fish show stress from shipping, poor feeding and general neglect.
What you can do is find the best fish you can and start your own breeding program. Feed your fry well, do your good water changes and keep the best fish for further breeding. All the fish you mentioned are easy to breed and fun to breed as well. Maybe the Neon tetra isn't so easy to propagate but there's your challenge.

 

[coriesinhawaii]

So, back on topic...

I'm yet to see ANY solid evidence that the so-called Dwarf Gourami Virus exists, or that guppies are so inbred they have all manner of issues.
What I have seen too much evidence of is still poor tank maintenance and fish care, especially, not not exclusively, amongst people new to the hobby.
What is also apparent, is the readiness of too many to play amateur fish vet. and to 'diagnose' an illness, rather than honestly reflect on poor tank maintenance and fish care, as the cause of fish demise.

Whilst I have no info regarding the aforementioned conditions overseas, here in Blighty, there's a strong suggestion that at least DGV is not as prevalent as the internet would have us believe.

I’m sure disease in dwarf gouramies due to poor tank maintenance does sometimes get blamed on Iridovirus when actually it isn’t. It happens with everything else in the hobby so why wouldn’t it happen with Iridovirus? My gouramies’ illness was not due to poor water quality though. I maintain my tanks very well. A viral lesion usually has a different appearance from a bacterial or fungal one, which can help differentiate for the (even minimally) experienced hobbyist.

Unfortunately I’m not sure what solid evidence there would be to prove it is a problem. Prevalence studies would require funding and as already discussed above I’m not sure that’s a realistic expectation. I guess individual breeders could send in pathology samples for testing but there’s not a lot of motivation there to do that I think because if it comes back positive that would require a lot of action on their part before they could justify selling any more fish.

 

[coriesinhawaii]

@Bruce Leyland-Jones I have heard all the concerns you mention about certain fish and I used to believe those things. You should be able to spot a diseased fish. Nothing hard about that. Inbred is another story. I think that certain species were healthier and more vigorous in the olden days, most notably the Dwarf Gourami. Your question has made me think, something I rarely do. In the case of the Dwarf Gourami I have heard that the big breeders won't sell females because they fear competition from hobbyist breeders. That does not seem likely. Those guys are so big you'd have to really be big yourself to be any threat to their stranglehold on the market. I think they just want to sell lots of colorful males and in doing that they don't cull as ruthlessly as they should and you see all the runts and deformed ones that never made it into the dealers tanks before. Many fish show stress from shipping, poor feeding and general neglect.
What you can do is find the best fish you can and start your own breeding program. Feed your fry well, do your good water changes and keep the best fish for further breeding. All the fish you mentioned are easy to breed and fun to breed as well. Maybe the Neon tetra isn't so easy to propagate but there's your challenge.

Unfortunately with Iridovirus in gouramies you can’t always tell that there is anything wrong with the fish. It can be present in a fish for months without any symptoms, which is one reason it is such a problem. It’s so hard to know which fish have the illness. Even if you quarantine the fish for an extended period of time it could still be harboring the virus.

 

[itiwhetu]

I’m sure disease in dwarf gouramies due to poor tank maintenance does sometimes get blamed on Iridovirus when actually it isn’t. It happens with everything else in the hobby so why wouldn’t it happen with Iridovirus? My gouramies’ illness was not due to that though. I maintain my tanks very well. A viral lesion usually has a different appearance from a bacterial or fungal one, which can help differentiate for the (even minimally) experienced hobbyist.

Unfortunately I’m not sure what solid evidence there would be to prove it is a problem. Prevalence studies would require funding and as already discussed above I’m not sure that’s a realistic expectation. I guess individual breeders could send in pathology samples for testing but there’s not a lot of motivation there to do that I think because if it comes back positive that would require a lot of action on their part before they could justify selling any more fish.

At one stage in my life I had all the gear, microscopes you name it and decided I was going to combat fish diseases properly. I had completed Zoology papers at University so knew a little. My conclusion after months of dissecting fish was, we really know only half of what we think we know and that all disease management in aquariums is guess work.

 

[Colin_T]

The following link is from the Australian government's department of agriculture website and has information on the gourami iridovirus and a number of other fish iridoviruses. It suggests the gourami iridovirus can jump species to murray cod and possibly other species of fish.

https://www.agriculture.gov.au/sites/default/files/style%20library/images/daff/__data/assets/pdffile/0004/2404309/gourami-ira.pdf

 

[Spyro]

So, back on topic...

I'm yet to see ANY solid evidence that the so-called Dwarf Gourami Virus exists, or that guppies are so inbred they have all manner of issues.
What I have seen too much evidence of is still poor tank maintenance and fish care, especially, not not exclusively, amongst people new to the hobby.
What is also apparent, is the readiness of too many to play amateur fish vet. and to 'diagnose' an illness, rather than honestly reflect on poor tank maintenance and fish care, as the cause of fish demise.

Whilst I have no info regarding the aforementioned conditions overseas, here in Blighty, there's a strong suggestion that at least DGV is not as prevalent as the internet would have us believe.

You'd be perfect spokesperson for Pet chain stores, blame everything on poor tank maintenance. lol

 

[DoubleDutch]

To be honest the devestating amount of DG got me to join international forums to find a reason for this.

Sorry to say but to me you're wrong about the maintenance only being culprit of the thousand and thousands of ill and dieing fish..
A little bit of search is needed to find scientific proof Iridiviruses are in allmost all fish and certainly the overbred fish as Neons, Angels, Rams and DG's. In none of these fish the outcome is so disastrous as in the DG's.
I've visited a lot.of.LFS's in Holland and Germany and noticed DG's arrive there in a deplorable state, dieing, etc....
Years and years fish TB was blamed
Trying to find some pics of DG's in Bonn Germany which simply should be euthanised on the spot. The overuse of antibiotics in farms causes them to be vunerable for bacteria that are common in our water / environment. When they hit our water they simply aren't able to fight these in fact common bacteria and get ill. It is not magic, but is quite simple (and there has been a lot of scientific research). Fact that the trade doesn't do anything is that replacement brings profit.
Neons are going the same way !

The reasoning about selling only males is a fairy tale. It is only caused by certain wholesalers in certain countries only want to sell males cause of marketing reasons and the reason this fish often is kept single (a shame to.me). In Europe males and females are both available and often sold as pairs (like they should be in my opinion).

I think the DG is one of the most beautiful fish excisting and exact that causes the devestating breeding and destruction of these fish.

And yes keeping the fish single in a too small tank with worsening waterparameters / little maintenance would kill any fish before it reaches its right age. Have a look in the disease section for bettas as well for that part.

 

[Colin_T]

In Australia we buy in dwarf gouramis as males or females. Most importers just buy in males because they are colourful and sell, whereas the plain silver females don't sell, or if they do it is 1 female here and 1 there. The females just aren't big sellers so shops here don't bother stocking them.

The fish can carry the Iridovirus for months or even years and it remains dormant or under control if the fish is healthy, in good condition and isn't stressed. The problem is healthy fish get stressed when shipped around the world and put into multiple different tanks over a short period of time. Then the virus starts to overwhelm the fish and the fish dies. They die from a combination of factors, stress and having the virus.

The following link is about the stress fish undergo when sent from a fish farm to a pet shop. It's pretty long but might interest people who don't know how fish travel around the world.

Fish Importing, from the farm to the home

If any of you have wondered how aquarium fish get to the local pet shop, the following will give you some insight as to what they have to go through to get from the fish farm where they are bred and raised, to the pet shop where you can buy them. The stress they go through is quite...

www.fishforums.net

 

[Spyro]

In Australia we buy in dwarf gouramis as males or females. Most importers just buy in males because they are colourful and sell, whereas the plain silver females don't sell, or if they do it is 1 female here and 1 there. The females just aren't big sellers so shops here don't bother stocking them.

The fish can carry the Iridovirus for months or even years and it remains dormant or under control if the fish is healthy, in good condition and isn't stressed. The problem is healthy fish get stressed when shipped around the world and put into multiple different tanks over a short period of time. Then the virus starts to overwhelm the fish and the fish dies. They die from a combination of factors, stress and having the virus.

The following link is about the stress fish undergo when sent from a fish farm to a pet shop. It's pretty long but might interest people who don't know how fish travel around the world.

Fish Importing, from the farm to the home

If any of you have wondered how aquarium fish get to the local pet shop, the following will give you some insight as to what they have to go through to get from the fish farm where they are bred and raised, to the pet shop where you can buy them. The stress they go through is quite...

www.fishforums.net

Good read

 

[Bruce Leyland-Jones]

Sorry to say but to me you're wrong about the maintenance only being culprit of the thousand and thousands of ill and dieing fish..

And you then go on to decribe appalling conditions and poor maintenance

Trying to find some pics of DG's in Bonn Germany which simply should be euthanised on the spot. The overuse of antibiotics in farms causes them to be vunerable for bacteria that are common in our water / environment. When they hit our water they simply aren't able to fight these in fact common bacteria and get ill. It is not magic, but is quite simple (and there has been a lot of scientific research). Fact that the trade doesn't do anything is that replacement brings profit.
Neons are going the same way !

The reasoning about selling only males is a fairy tale. It is only caused by certain wholesalers in certain countries only want to sell males cause of marketing reasons and the reason this fish often is kept single (a shame to.me). In Europe males and females are both available and often sold as pairs (like they should be in my opinion).

NOT a 'fairy tale' and you'll notice that my own post described the reason for the lack of female Dwarf Gourami in the market.
Again, retailers only buy in what the general fish-buying (and largely ignorant) public want.
Again, each of my three local retailers will get me ladies, if I wanted, for no extra cost. Each prepared to shoulder the cost of those excess to my needs, all saying that they know that the 'real' aquarists will soon buy them.

 

[DoubleDutch]

And you then go on to decribe appalling conditions and poor maintenance



NOT a 'fairy tale' and you'll notice that my own post described the reason for the lack of female Dwarf Gourami in the market.
Again, retailers only buy in what the general fish-buying (and largely ignorant) public want.
Again, each of my three local retailers will get me ladies, if I wanted, for no extra cost. Each prepared to shoulder the cost of those excess to my needs, all saying that they know that the 'real' aquarists will soon buy them.

I meand the part about not selling females cause people would breed them themselves. That's a fairy ta

And you then go on to decribe appalling conditions and poor maintenance



NOT a 'fairy tale' and you'll notice that my own post described the reason for the lack of female Dwarf Gourami in the market.
Again, retailers only buy in what the general fish-buying (and largely ignorant) public want.
Again, each of my three local retailers will get me ladies, if I wanted, for no extra cost. Each prepared to shoulder the cost of those excess to my needs, all saying that they know that the 'real' aquarists will soon buy them.

Meand the story that females weren't sold cause people would breed them themselves.

It is exact what you say. People only buying the bright / colored fish and saying it should only be kept as single fish.

 

[emeraldking]

So, back on topic...

I'm yet to see ANY solid evidence that the so-called Dwarf Gourami Virus exists, or that guppies are so inbred they have all manner of issues.
What I have seen too much evidence of is still poor tank maintenance and fish care, especially, not not exclusively, amongst people new to the hobby.
What is also apparent, is the readiness of too many to play amateur fish vet. and to 'diagnose' an illness, rather than honestly reflect on poor tank maintenance and fish care, as the cause of fish demise.

Overhere, at the dutch wholesalers, they all treat those dwarf gouramis before they will be sold to an lfs.
Most guppies that come from fish farms are mass produced guppies with hardly some selection procedures. Inbreeding is not avoidable under those circumstances. But the first generations of inbreeding isn't a problem. But continuous inbreeding may cause physical problems.
People also forget that looking at the stages of water conditions that they will swim in, from fish farm to wholesaler abroad to lfs and finally to the fishkeeper, those fish had already a stressful journey before entering your fishtank. This is also one of the reasons why not all specimens will be strong enough.
What a lot of people also don't realize that buying fish from different stores, doesn't mean that they are not related. For if those stores have the same wholesaler, a pretty good chance that those fish may be related. And you will start inbreeding again.