Not Cycling A Tank?

[Raticataticus]

I live in Australia and for the life of me I cannot find ammonia for sale in stores. 
 
I was wondering if it's possible add fish to a tank that is not cycled by adding just a couple of fish at a time and keeping a close eye on the ammonia, nitrate, nitrites and doing water changes as necessary?
 
I am planning on a 40-50 gal community tank with a dwarf gourami as the centrepiece fish.
 
Should I attempt to cycle with fish food first?
 
I have plenty of fish stores near me so purchasing just a couple of fish here and there is not an issue.

 

[Mamashack]

Bit of a dilemma for you then. The only problem with using fish food is you have no control over what ammonia is produced.
Adding too much can cause the cycle to stall if the nitrites get too high.
However I think it would be worth a try before using fish to cycle the tank tho I know other people have done it.
Are you able to seed the tank from a mature one? Maybe your LFS would let you have some of their substrate to kick start the process or maybe a friend with a mature tank?.
If do you decide to go the fish-in route, make sure they are hardy fish and it would be worth reading the TFF articles on fish-in cycling under Cycle Your tank and the articles are called Rescuing a fish-in cycle gone wild I & II.
Good luck and let us know how you get on.

 

[cambojnr]

I live in Australia and for the life of me I cannot find ammonia for sale in stores. 
 
I was wondering if it's possible add fish to a tank that is not cycled by adding just a couple of fish at a time and keeping a close eye on the ammonia, nitrate, nitrites and doing water changes as necessary?
 
I am planning on a 40-50 gal community tank with a dwarf gourami as the centrepiece fish.
 
Should I attempt to cycle with fish food first?
 
I have plenty of fish stores near me so purchasing just a couple of fish here and there is not an issue.

If you have an ebay account there is someone on there who sells it for the purpose of fish less cycling, just type in fish less cycling ammonia.

 

[Raticataticus]

 
If you have an ebay account there is someone on there who sells it for the purpose of fish less cycling, just type in fish less cycling ammonia.
 

 
Thanks, I will have a look.

 

[Byron]

If you intend plants, you can just let the plants handle things.  Make sure there are some fast-growing species; floating plants are ideal for this, plus you should always have floating plants in a tank with gourami because they naturally spend their time browsing the leaves and dangling roots for food.  And they use the floating plants to build bubble nests (the species that build these, a few do not).
 
We have had a couple threads recently where this has been explained by more than one of us, but if you have questions, please ask.
 
Byron.

 

[Gruntle]

Living in Australia I understand your dilemma, but I went to ebay and got 50ml pure fishless cycling ammonia. Under $15, it cycled my 200l tank with some left over.  Seems like a different seller from when I got it, he also sells 100ml and 150ml bottles. It came within a week and I was so glad I could do things the fishless cycling way.
 
Another option is to find a friend with a tank (I'm in Brisbane if you're close) and arrange a swap of 1/3 of your filter media to give you a head start.
 
Plants are good, if you buy them from a LFS they should have a fair quantity of bacteria attached, but I don't think you could fully rely on them to have enough bacteria for a fully stocked tank (but maybe enough to support a slow trickle of fish into the tank).
 
Buying "sacrificial" fish (an option recommended to me at one point) to kick-start your cycle seems unnecessarily cruel, buying the fish you want and attempting a fish-in cycle can lead to long term health problems and also loss of fish. It can be done with some careful monitoring, but if the option is there, definitely go with the fishless cycle.
 
My advice is to get your ammonia from ebay. the bottle has a drop attachment. I found that 30 drops gave me 3ppm in a 200l tank. And I didn't have to stress about whether my fish were healthy (having gone through a fish-in cycle previously and lost a fair quantity of fish along the way, I can recommend going fishless all day long).

 

[Mamashack]

If you do manage to get some ammonia, Raticaticus, use the calculator on here to do the hard work for you. Put in the strength of the ammonia, the volume of water involved, what level you want (3 ppm is recommended) and it will tell you how many mls to add.
If you haven't read it already, the article linked at the end of my signature is a great help if followed to the letter.
Good luck!

 

[Raticataticus]

Living in Australia I understand your dilemma, but I went to ebay and got 50ml pure fishless cycling ammonia. Under $15, it cycled my 200l tank with some left over.  Seems like a different seller from when I got it, he also sells 100ml and 150ml bottles. It came within a week and I was so glad I could do things the fishless cycling way.
 
Another option is to find a friend with a tank (I'm in Brisbane if you're close) and arrange a swap of 1/3 of your filter media to give you a head start.
 

 
Thanks for your advice. I am definitely going to get some off eBay.
 
Question, if you decide to do plants and a fishless cycle, at what point should you put the plants in? Before or after the cycle is completed?

 

[Gvilleguy]

This is always a polarizing topic to even mention on this forum, but, if you have trouble with the ammonia situation, you could see if you can order Dr Tim's One and Only Nitrifying Bacteria in a bottle product. My own track record, logged in various threads on this forum over the past few years: I have done four fishless cycles with ammonia, and two cycles using Dr Tim's, over a four year period. In both cases of using Dr Tim's my tank cycled in a week or so compared to a month with fishless cycling. (I have 6.0 pH, zero KH tap water which takes forever to cycle!).
 
So I only mention that in case you can get ahold of some of that product easier than you can the ammonia. I believe either method works okay.

 

[Mamashack]

Still need ammonia tho even with Dr Tim's One and Only to keep the bacteria alive whilst doing a small fishless cycle. It won't replace the whole cycle but should reduce it to about 2 weeks max depending on how the product has been stored/shipped and how many surviving bacteria are left in the bottle.

 

[Gvilleguy]

Yes, in my case I fed ammonia into the tank to test the bottled product and see how long to fully cycle. But based on what I saw in my tanks, I could have done a 'fish in' cycle after using Dr. Tims, and there would have been very little to no damage done to the fish as long as I kept up with water changes. So if you can't get ammonia for a cycle, it would be a good alternative.

 

[Mamashack]

I agree Gvilleguy, much better than cycling with sacrificial fish imho.
I guess my point is we have no idea what temperature conditions the product has been transported in, from one side of the world to the other in some cases since it is produced in the US and may have had a long journey across the Atlantic to get to Europe or the Pacific to get to Australasia for instance. So if at all possible a good idea to challenge the bacteria with ammonia if obtainable.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

 
Still need ammonia tho even with Dr Tim's One and Only to keep the bacteria alive whilst doing a small fishless cycle. It won't replace the whole cycle but should reduce it to about 2 weeks max depending on how the product has been stored/shipped and how many surviving bacteria are left in the bottle.

 
In most cases the time is one week to reach fully cycled and to add a full fish load. If you use it properly, you do not need to cycle at all. However, you will need to put the fish in in a couple of smaller additions when doing this. If one uses this product it is important not to use the cycling instructions on this site but rather to use the ones on Dr Tim's site found here http/www.drtimsaquatics.com/resources/how-to-start
 

 
Using DrTim’s Aquatics One & Only Live Bacteria: The best and easiest way to fishless cycle is to combine adding the ammonium chloride with our Live Nitrifying bacteria. When used in combination, these will cycle the tank in less than one week. Again, do not add too much ammonia. We make it easy by providing a bottle of reagent grade ammonium chloride that is at a concentration such that adding 1 drop of solution to 1 gallon of aquarium water will result in an ammonia-nitrogen concentration of 2 mg/L (ppm).
 
The procedure is to add the ammonium chloride solution, shake the bottle of nitrifying bacteria well and add it to the aquarium. Measure ammonia and nitrite the next day and record. Add ½ dose and wait 24 hours and measure again. By day 5 to 7, you should be able to add 1 drop per gallon and the next day, ammonia and nitrite will be 0.

 
The same follow-their-directions rule applies to using any of the few viable starter products. Many of them are the wrong bacteria, so be careful what you buy. If you got with the above, please note that what the above means is that on day two you test, but the results are for your records and should normally be ignored. You put in the 2nd day 1/2 dose no matter what the test results say. Do not add more ammonia than instructed, do not change water, just follow the directions.

 

[Gruntle]

To be honest I've never seen Dr Tim's in Australia.

As for plants in a cycle, the plants will affect the conditions because they take some of the ammonia. My suggestion would be ask TwoTankAmin because I keep forgetting what he recommends and he's the undisputed champion of cycling as far as I'm concerned. I added my plants at the start of my cycle, however I didn't get three aquatics and they rotted and messed up the cycle anyway. If you put plants in before/during the cycle, it will shorten the cycle time, but you have to play with the ammonia. I'm sure I read a thread on this, and I'm sure TwoTank has the information at his fingertips so I'm not going to attempt to remember (and no doubt get it wrong).

 

[Stu4648]

I used plants while cycling both my tanks, the second one also benefiting from some filter media seeded from the first tank. I chose to cycle my tanks with a small number of fish present, lots and lots of plants and frequent water changes.
 
From my understanding (only been doing this properly for a couple of years so you may want to take that with a pinch of salt), although plants prefer nitrate they will also take up a fair amount of ammonia and nitrite, particularly in the absence of nitrate as they need a food source and will make do with whatever is available. I think by using the plants the cycling technically takes longer because the plants remove a lot of the ammonia, slowing the colonisation by the bacteria which break down the ammonia to nitrite. Likewise, the plants will remove a lot of the nitrite once it starts getting produced through the breakdown of the ammonia, slowing down the colonisation of the bacteria that will then go on to convert nitrite to nitrate. Therefore it may take longer until nitrate, the plants preferred source is being produced, but as the ammonia levels and subsequently nitrite levels are effectively being kept under control by the plants any fish in the tank should (in theory anyway) not suffer from excessive ammonia or nitrite exposure.
 
If you carry out frequent water changes it should remove any excess ammonia produced by the fish, which should not be too high initially anyway provided you only add a few fish. As time goes on you can add more fish as the denitrifying bacteria start to build up. Provided you take your time you should not harm the fish, my cycling pioneers are still alive 2 years later and I have never lost a fish during active cycling. I cannot say that they are as healthy as they would have been had they not been introduced until after the cycling process had taken place but they look happy enough to me. It was the plants actually that suffered initially until the number of fish had been increased to the point that sufficient ammonia, nitrite and / or nitrate was available so that there was a sufficient food source for all the plants.
 
I can give you the exact timetable I used if you are interested but I certainly would not knock the fishless cycle method as that is the only way you can definitely guarantee not harming your fish.