Nitrifying Bacteria

You can make jokes all you like, but the scientific process doesn't allow researchers to do what they want. Even outside of the commercial world they still have to write proposals and get funding. So its of little surprise that Hovanec's research hasn't been taken up ... there is simply no mileage and no point because it lacks a wider applicability ... perhaps some would consider this a flaw in the non-commercial world.

But there is! The only scientific paper looking at what bacteria deal with nitrite in an aquarium setting suggests it is not Nitrobacter. Surely if you were a copmany selling a bacteria solution with Nitrobacter in it you would want to publish a rebuttal? I know I wouldn't want the only science out there to suggest my product was less than ideal.

Cancer research would be nowhere without the charity funded foundations.

On a somewhat pedantic term, I don't think you can class that as public funded. Charity funded is still private monies.

Food for thought, did Hovanec patent the bacteria (I kind of doubt it being that it is described only as -like) or did he patent the gene sequence (partial or full?) or a process? Depending upon what he patented and it full reach, he may very well have made further research difficult or pointless.

The patent appears to be for a form of cultured bacteria with properties similar to the gene sequence he witnessed in the 1998 paper.

Linky
 
I think the main point is cost. It doesn't come cheap to run the experiment and tbo I doubt that the results would be any different under the same conditions and from a scientific point replication is all that counts. I'm most definitely not accusing Hovanec of falsifying his research. So while it is more than possible that another experiment using quite different water parameters could find the presence of Nitrobacter at the end of the day it wouldn't make any difference because under Hovanec's experimental conditions his results would still hold.

As an aside, Hovanecs research doesn't require a rebuttal from the Nitrobacter camp. As I pointed out his results were not conclusive primarily because they covered such a narrow range. In fact you would be hard pushed to seriously make the claim that Nitrobacter played absolutely no part in all or any aquaria nitrification processes. The way science works is by weight of evidence, and one or even a few papers with such limited focus are simply not enough. On the other hand, nitrobacter does have a proven track record albeit in water purification.

I'd read the patent previously but not being a molecularbiologist I couldn't be sure what exactly was being used to define the patented bacteria. From reading it again I am still unsure, but I suspect that through the use of 95%'s etc and a gene sequence that I bet specifically covers the genes responsible for the nitrification process the patent will basically make any further commercial research into nitrospira-LIKE bacteria pointless because I very much doubt that any new bacteria that you found wouldn't already be covered by the wide net of the patent.

Btw my distinction was commercial vs non commercial, so public or private it doesn't really matter (as it happens I'm not a great fan of Public funded commercial work either). Also charities being recipients of large tax breaks and often unique terms of incorporation are special cases.
 
The patent likely wouldn't stand up if challenged - Biological patents in general haven't been widely tested, but since a number of patents for genetically engineered organisms have not stood up, I doubt one for a culture of unmodified bacteria would, either.

There are fourteen papers listed on asm.org that draw on Hovanecs research directly dealing with situations where there is no excess nitrite and have similar results - Nitrospira over Nitrobacter. Or perhaps Marineland has a vested interest in uncontaminated French estuaries and Russian plumbing systems, I know their parent company owns non-pet brands as well. A great amount of Nitrobacter research published is dealing with runoff areas or water treatment plants where there's an overabundance of ammonia and nitrite. Not the normal situation in an aquarium.
 
I work in waste water so you just found yourself a debate partner! I work with aerobic bacteria in our aeration tanks and we would never buy nitrospira bacteria for nitrite oxidization in situation.

Lol, this has changed in a year. Last time you kept saying how you had a Ph.D friend who would give you evidence to prove how Hovanec is so wrong, yet you never provided anything to back it up, nor even the name of your Ph.D friend. Care to provide any actual evidence this time? ;)
Tell you what, how about you post on one of the many scientific threads down the board to give us your expert evaluation.


Ahhhh there you are !!! The Vice Admiral of "nitrifiers out of the tap". (still chuckling about that one). No, I had a PhD friend comment on your outrageous and embarrassing proclamation that nitrifying bacteria come to you through your tap water. I didn't need him to say anything about Hovanic being wrong about nitrobacter. I already knew that from experience.

No, everything is the same with me and sadly appears to be the same with you. The only difference between now and then is that the nitrospira product had the plug pulled on it. I'll give you three guesses to tell me who is more surprised about this, you or me? I'll give you a week so you can hunt down some scientific research papers to answer that question.
 
Ahhhh there you are !!! The Vice Admiral of "nitrifiers out of the tap". (still chuckling about that one). No, I had a PhD friend comment on your outrageous and embarrassing proclamation that nitrifying bacteria come to you through your tap water.

Really? Even after you showed him the studies of real world water treatment plants where they are finding nitrosomonas, niotrbacter and nitrospira in water that has been treated with chloramines? Pretty closed mind for a scientist on your friend.

And I note the Ph.D stays nameless :D

I didn't need him to say anything about Hovanic being wrong about nitrobacter. I already knew that from experience.

Of course...

No, everything is the same with me and sadly appears to be the same with you. The only difference between now and then is that the nitrospira product had the plug pulled on it. I'll give you three guesses to tell me who is more surprised about this, you or me? I'll give you a week so you can hunt down some scientific research papers to answer that question.

No surprise here. Hovanec had the patent, he has left and formed a new company by the looks of it and sells the same product under a different name with Nitrospira in it.

But you are right, you still haven't been able to refute any comments with any form of scientific evidence to back up your claims. ;)
 
Hello All:

My name is Dr Timothy Hovanec - yes, that Dr Hovanec who's motives, interests etc are, among other things, being debated in this thread. I thought I would log-in and try to answer some of the questions posed about nitrifiers and nitrifying products. Of course, I am willing to answer questions about these types of bugs and the research I did (and am still doing) but I won't get into personal attacks and that kind of pointless name calling etc.

I generally don't get involved with these types of conversations but it seemed that this group was interested in the science behind nitrifiers and nitrifying products so I thought I would attempt to add to the conversation over the course of a few posts which may get a little long.

First, to try and clear-up a few things. I started keeping tropical fish when I was a kid (6 years old) and later when I found out you could actually make a living studying fish the goal I set for myself was to go to college and get a degree in biology and work with fish. Unlike many who never realize their dream I was fortunate to be able to achieve mine and was always able to study and work with fish and fish related projects. After getting my B.S., I was a US Peace Corps volunteer working with milkfish and shrimp in the Philippines, then back in States got my M.S. working on ammonia toxicity and excretion in striped bass and stated working at a fish farm applying this research. In 1990, the owner of Marineland offered me the "keys to the candy store" - a chance to set-up my own lab, work on what I wanted and set my own priorities. When you own the company you can spend your money how you see fit and not answer to accountants and suits - which he never did. In 1993, while working at Marineland I went back to get my Ph.D. at UCSB. The goal was to try and figure out where nitrifiers lived in aquaria and what they liked and disliked. There was no thought of creating a new product and in fact if you read my articles written at that time, I wrote what everyone believed - Nitrosomonas europaea and Nitrobacter winogradskyi where the ammonia- and nitrite-oxidizing in aquaria and everywhere else, this was considered 'fact' and I believed it like everyone else.

At UCSB, I was lucky to met a Professor there named Ed DeLong who was not only a famous microbiologist before age 35 but also a fish hobbyist (btw: to whomever wrote that maybe Prof DeLong was an adjunct professor - Prof DeLong is today a fully tenured professor at MIT and this year was elected by his peers to the US National Academy of Sciences, please do not denigrate a person you have no knowledge of. Ed has more papers published in Nature and Science then one thought possible).

In any case, Prod DeLong took a fish geek under his wing and taught him to be a microbiologist. If you read the first of my peer-reviewed papers who see it deals with DNA techniques to try and find Nitrosomonas and Nitrobacter in aquaria - all the results were negative. This was the first hint that what was written was not correct. The goal was to develop the DNA techniques so I could answer the question - where do nitrifiers live in the aquaria? The gravel, the filter, the tank walls etc but I could not find the traditional nitrifiers anywhere. It took 3 years of work to get that negative answer. Now the research took a big left turn - if not N. europaea or Nb. winogradskyi then who?

The answer this question took 2 more years for the nitrite-oxidizer (1998) and 4 years for the ammonia-oxidizer (2000). During this time, patents were applied for which is how funding bodies (be they governments or companies) try to recoup some of their investments IF something comes out of the research - applying for patents is a gamble. Universities has large staffed office of technology transfer that try to find companies to license their patent research. It it naive to think that research at Universities to done "just for the good of mankind" Sure some is but these days with dwindling resources and funding cuts Universities are looking for money from all sources. Also, don't think patents are cheap - just the translation fees for one patent in select European countries was $120,000. This does not include all the atty fees, filling fees, etc. We can discuss patents separately if you all wish.

As for the originality and importance of the research - many have mis-interpreted the research and write that I declared that Nitrobacter does not oxidizing nitrite. This is not true - what I wrote is that "the data suggest that Nitrobacter winogradskyi and close relatives were not the dominant nitrite-oxidizing bacteria in freshwater aquaria. Instead, nitrite oxidation in freshwater aquaria appeared to be mediated by bacteria closely related to Nitrospira moscoviensis and Nitrosprira marina." My research was on aquaria and I did not extend it beyond that. However, my work was published in Jan 1998 - in that same year 3 other papers by 3 other groups (1 in Australia and 2 in Germany) published their work that showed Nitrospira bacteria were important in other systems including wastewater, sewage and aquaculture. Today, the prevailing theory (which I will post in another thread as this is getting too long) is that Nitrobacter occurs in high nitrite environments while Nitrospira dominates in low nitrite environments (i.e., aquaria).

It is wrong to assume that all bacteria can live in all environments and under all conditions.

I'll stop here for the night but, of course, a central question is why do bottled mixes work, not work, some times work etc. I will next post my thoughts on this subject and also provide research results (not mine own) on nitrifiers in tapwater.

Of course, I welcome questions and comments and hope we can learn by the exchange.
I apologize in advance for the length of this post but the subject is important and there is too much mis-information out there.

Cheers and thanks for reading.

DrTim
 
Ahhhh there you are !!! The Vice Admiral of "nitrifiers out of the tap". (still chuckling about that one). No, I had a PhD friend comment on your outrageous and embarrassing proclamation that nitrifying bacteria come to you through your tap water.

Ron, please direct your friend to Regan, Harrington, and Noguera: "Ammonia- and Nitrite-Oxidizing Bacterial Communities in a Pilot-Scale Chloraminated Drinking Water Distribution System" Applied and Enviromental Microbiology 2002. and Wolfe et al. "Occurrence of nitrification in chloranimated distribution systems" Journal (American Water Works Association), 1996 and Regan et al. "Diversity of nitrifying bacteria in full-scale cloranimated distribution systems" Water Research, 2003.

Both of these papers reported significant colonies of nitrifiers at water processing plants where tap water comes from. Wolfe et al. actually says "63% of U.S. chloramining utilites and 64% of Southern Australian utilities tested positive for nitrifying bacteria."

If you friend has proof otherwise, seems to me he could make quite a name for himself by publishing papers showing where these currently accepted papers are wrong. Or at least have your friend cite some paper refuting those cited above.
 
Hello All:

My name is Dr Timothy Hovanec - yes, that Dr Hovanec who's motives, interests etc are, among other things, being debated in this thread. I thought I would log-in and try to answer some of the questions posed about nitrifiers and nitrifying products. Of course, I am willing to answer questions about these types of bugs and the research I did (and am still doing) but I won't get into personal attacks and that kind of pointless name calling etc.

I generally don't get involved with these types of conversations but it seemed that this group was interested in the science behind nitrifiers and nitrifying products so I thought I would attempt to add to the conversation over the course of a few posts which may get a little long.

First, to try and clear-up a few things. I started keeping tropical fish when I was a kid (6 years old) and later when I found out you could actually make a living studying fish the goal I set for myself was to go to college and get a degree in biology and work with fish. Unlike many who never realize their dream I was fortunate to be able to achieve mine and was always able to study and work with fish and fish related projects. After getting my B.S., I was a US Peace Corps volunteer working with milkfish and shrimp in the Philippines, then back in States got my M.S. working on ammonia toxicity and excretion in striped bass and stated working at a fish farm applying this research. In 1990, the owner of Marineland offered me the "keys to the candy store" - a chance to set-up my own lab, work on what I wanted and set my own priorities. When you own the company you can spend your money how you see fit and not answer to accountants and suits - which he never did. In 1993, while working at Marineland I went back to get my Ph.D. at UCSB. The goal was to try and figure out where nitrifiers lived in aquaria and what they liked and disliked. There was no thought of creating a new product and in fact if you read my articles written at that time, I wrote what everyone believed - Nitrosomonas europaea and Nitrobacter winogradskyi where the ammonia- and nitrite-oxidizing in aquaria and everywhere else, this was considered 'fact' and I believed it like everyone else.

At UCSB, I was lucky to met a Professor there named Ed DeLong who was not only a famous microbiologist before age 35 but also a fish hobbyist (btw: to whomever wrote that maybe Prof DeLong was an adjunct professor - Prof DeLong is today a fully tenured professor at MIT and this year was elected by his peers to the US National Academy of Sciences, please do not denigrate a person you have no knowledge of. Ed has more papers published in Nature and Science then one thought possible).

In any case, Prod DeLong took a fish geek under his wing and taught him to be a microbiologist. If you read the first of my peer-reviewed papers who see it deals with DNA techniques to try and find Nitrosomonas and Nitrobacter in aquaria - all the results were negative. This was the first hint that what was written was not correct. The goal was to develop the DNA techniques so I could answer the question - where do nitrifiers live in the aquaria? The gravel, the filter, the tank walls etc but I could not find the traditional nitrifiers anywhere. It took 3 years of work to get that negative answer. Now the research took a big left turn - if not N. europaea or Nb. winogradskyi then who?

The answer this question took 2 more years for the nitrite-oxidizer (1998) and 4 years for the ammonia-oxidizer (2000). During this time, patents were applied for which is how funding bodies (be they governments or companies) try to recoup some of their investments IF something comes out of the research - applying for patents is a gamble. Universities has large staffed office of technology transfer that try to find companies to license their patent research. It it naive to think that research at Universities to done "just for the good of mankind" Sure some is but these days with dwindling resources and funding cuts Universities are looking for money from all sources. Also, don't think patents are cheap - just the translation fees for one patent in select European countries was $120,000. This does not include all the atty fees, filling fees, etc. We can discuss patents separately if you all wish.

As for the originality and importance of the research - many have mis-interpreted the research and write that I declared that Nitrobacter does not oxidizing nitrite. This is not true - what I wrote is that "the data suggest that Nitrobacter winogradskyi and close relatives were not the dominant nitrite-oxidizing bacteria in freshwater aquaria. Instead, nitrite oxidation in freshwater aquaria appeared to be mediated by bacteria closely related to Nitrospira moscoviensis and Nitrosprira marina." My research was on aquaria and I did not extend it beyond that. However, my work was published in Jan 1998 - in that same year 3 other papers by 3 other groups (1 in Australia and 2 in Germany) published their work that showed Nitrospira bacteria were important in other systems including wastewater, sewage and aquaculture. Today, the prevailing theory (which I will post in another thread as this is getting too long) is that Nitrobacter occurs in high nitrite environments while Nitrospira dominates in low nitrite environments (i.e., aquaria).

It is wrong to assume that all bacteria can live in all environments and under all conditions.

I'll stop here for the night but, of course, a central question is why do bottled mixes work, not work, some times work etc. I will next post my thoughts on this subject and also provide research results (not mine own) on nitrifiers in tapwater.

Of course, I welcome questions and comments and hope we can learn by the exchange.
I apologize in advance for the length of this post but the subject is important and there is too much mis-information out there.

Cheers and thanks for reading.

DrTim

Wow! Dr Hovanec, :hi: to TFF (Tropical Fish Forums),

What an honour to have you as a member.

A few of us have been discussing your work at some length (where we can understand it) recently, and its fabulous to have you as a member of the forum, so we can bounce thoughts off each other and hopefully learn a lot from you.

You will find the bulk of our discussion in your field within the 'New to the Hobby' and 'Scientific Section' sub-forums.

I hope you enjoy the forum as much as the rest of us, and welcome aboard. :good:

Regards

BTT
 
Dear BTT - thanks for the warm welcome. I look forward to some interesting exchanges and would glad to answer questions other forum members might have.

I thought I would continue with my post from yesterday and build upon the comments of Dr Honkerface regarding nitrifiers and drinking water. If the moderators wish this can be moved to the scientific section.

The importance of nitrifiers in drinking water distribution systems stems from the fact that they are generally considered to be pests. This is because the combination of ammonia-oxidizing bacteria (AOB) and nitrite-oxidizing bacteria (NOB) in biofilms on the sides of the pipes of the distribution system are more resist to chlorine and chloramines and they oxidize the ammonia, formed by the dissociation of the chloramines, into nitrate which causes the drinking water to be over the US-EPA standard for nitrate once the water reached the faucet of one’s home.

I won’t re-hash what Dr Honkerface posted but get to the question of do any of these papers tell us which nitrite-oxidizing bacteria is present in drinking water systems? Regan et al 2002 used molecular probes, including one I developed for Nitrospira, to look at bacteria in drinking water distribution systems. They found that in chloraminated distribution systems the nitrite-oxidizing bacteria which dominated was Nitrospira. They did find some Nitrobacter but not in all systems, generally those where the pH was around 7 versus other systems with pH values around 8. If you read the paper, carefully read page 77 (the 5th page of the paper) here they write that “most of the Nitrospira sequences were related to Nitrospira moscoviensis and a Nitrospira clone sequence (Nsr. Sp AF038813) from a freshwater aquarium”. This clone is from my work and formed the basis for the NOB in BioSpira.
They also determined that the majority of the AOB found were related to Nitrosomonas oligotropha (not Nitrosomonas europaea).

Martiny et al 2005 looked at non-chlorinated model drinking water distribution systems and Nitrospira bacteria closely related to Nitrospira moscoviensis were found in all samples and constituted 39% of the clones from the bulk water and 25% of the biofilm community. This works out to be 50,000 to 200,000 cells per ml of water or 300,000 cells per cm2 of pipe surface. Since these cells do live in colonies that grow and are subject to shear forces of the passing water it is not hard to assume that cells get knocked off the pipe walls (and they are in water too) and end up in your aquarium when you fill it for the first time or top-up after a partial water change. Martiny et al 2005 did not mention finding Nitrobacter.

The reason why one finds Nitrospira and not Nitrobacter in these systems has to do with the nitrite concentrations. As Regan et al 2002 describes starting on page 79, a low-nitrite environment selects for Nitrospira while a high nitrite environment will select for Nitrobacter. Optimum growth for Nitrospira is a nitrite concentration around 0.14 mg/L NO2-N. For Nitrobacter the optimal nitrite concentration for grow is around 14 mg/l NO2-N which is a toxic concentration for most freshwater fishes.



References:

Martiny A., H-J Albrechtsen, E. Arvin and S. Mølin. 2005. Identification of Bacteria in Biofilm and Bulk Water Samples from a Nonchlorinated Model Drinking Water Distribution System: Detection of a Large Nitrite-Oxidizing Population Associated with Nitrospira spp. Applied and Environmental Microbiology 71:8611-8617.

Regan, J.M. G. W. Harrington, and D. R. Noguera. 2002. Ammonia- and Nitrite-Oxidizing Bacterial Communities in a Pilot-Scale Chloraminated Drinking Water Distribution System. Applied and Environmental Microbiology 68:73-81.
 
I live in a rural part of northern Australia where the temperatures are similar to those of most tropical aquaria during summer and lower (14-odd degrees celsius) during winter. It's currently winter and I recently convinced my parents that an 85 litre tank (20 gallons) would fit on the old table outside. They gave in.

I can't get ammonia to fishless cycle, but I thought that using 40% gravel from a cycled tank (the new tank has a UG filter) and two cycled power filters would avoid cycling. My parents were nagging me to get rid of the old tank so I had to move the fish straight away. The ammonia levels stayed very low - less than 0.1 ppm - so I thought there would be no problems. Then I lost three quarters of the fish to a columnaris epidemic. The tank was by no means fully loaded, I had far less fish in it than it could support.

But here's the interesting bit. We pump water from the creek into a water tank on the hill where it is exposed to the sun and filtered through carbon but not chlorinated or treated in any other way. When I initially filled the tank the water had been in the water tank for over a month (was running low). After the columnaris epidemic, I changed filters, emptied the tank and cleaned up as best I could. I had to because the dead fish had rotted in it so I had a lot of cleaning to do. When I refilled the aquarium the water in our domestic water tank had only been pumped out of the creek the day before. With a filter new out of the box in the tank, it cycled in far less time than I had expected (using rainbowfish from the creek.)

I'm not 100% sure it's fully cycled because I did something really dumb. (Knowing full well that phenol was photosensitive, left it out of the box. Idiot.) So the new baseline reading for the ammonia test seems to be 0.1ppm. I've tested heaps of water that I know has no ammonia in it and gotten the colour reading for 0.1 but as far as I can tell (using cloudy ammonia NH4OH) it is still accurate, the colours are just different. And - I expect to get called a quack for this - the water tastes and smells right. I can't, obviously, detect minute levels of ammonia in water, nor do I pretend to be able to do anything like that so don't flame me. But it smells and tastes healthy, not like a bath of noxious chemicals. I don't know how to explain it, I just know.

Dunno if that has any relevance to the discussion, but it appears that water from a healthy creek system which obviously contains nitrifying bacteria, can be 'killed' by spending a long time in the sun, even with available oxygen and possibly ammonia from rotting leaves and bird droppings in the tank. Obviously just speculation on my part but it makes sense doesn't it? I know that in summer at least the water is very hot, you can make a cup of instant soup using water from the cold tap and if you want to drink water at room temperature you have to mix it 50-50 with water from the fridge.

I can vouch for Aquarium Science Eco Start. I think it's just an Australian product but it bloody works. It's freeze dried and on some horrible 'porous mineral base' that turns the water white for three or four hours, but it really does seem to help.
 
:hyper:

Welcome to the forums Dr Tim, what an honour it is indeed! I do hope you stay and continue to give us the benefit of your contributions beyond the duration of this post. :D

Don't have the time or brain power to read all this through at 8am, but I'll make this my lunchtime reading and will post back later :D
 
well predictably after my lunch time read i still don't get half of this, as you'll know if you stick around I'm not the most scientifically minded person, but I like to challenge myself and attempt to understand this all a bit better.

My name is Dr Timothy Hovanec - yes, that Dr Hovanec who's motives, interests etc are, among other things, being debated in this thread. I thought I would log-in and try to answer some of the questions posed about nitrifiers and nitrifying products. Of course, I am willing to answer questions about these types of bugs and the research I did (and am still doing) but I won't get into personal attacks and that kind of pointless name calling etc.

I generally don't get involved with these types of conversations but it seemed that this group was interested in the science behind nitrifiers and nitrifying products so I thought I would attempt to add to the conversation over the course of a few posts which may get a little long.

I agree with this attitude, thankyou for giving us your time, I'm sure all of us (weather we agree with your research, motives, interests etc etc or not) are grateful to have your input.

Slightly cheeky question if you don't mind....... how did you find this thread? Did someone point it out to you or do you make a habit of nosing around fishkeeping forums? Just me being totally nosey, feel free to not answer! :rolleyes: :lol:

I'll stop here for the night but, of course, a central question is why do bottled mixes work, not work, some times work etc. I will next post my thoughts on this subject and also provide research results (not mine own) on nitrifiers in tapwater.

this is what really interests me to be honest. As I said before I'm not massivley scientific, I attempt to take a practical approach to fishkeeping and the advice I give out, as such what really interests me is not the theoretical debate behind it but what we can do to get things working better for people stuck in the usual 'the fish shop guy said to just leave the tank for a week then put some danio's in' situations which are all too common.

We get a lot of people saying they've tried all sorts of bacteria in a bottle products on this forum, generally the only two which report any sucess are Bio Spira in the US and Bactinettes in the UK, however at best the results with these products are mixed (obviously this is just anecdotal evidence, but in terms of application in a variety of home aquaria you'd be hard pushed to get anything other than anecdotal evidence i think). There's obvious things like storage and use by dates which will impact on the effectivness of the products, but even when these things seem to have been looked after correctly they sometimes just don't work. I'd love to know your thoughts on why this is, and of course the thoughts of any of the rest of you lot :p :D
 
hello LauraFrog

I think if more people used more of their senses (including the one labeled 'common') we'd all be better off.

There is nothing wrong with using taste and smell to assess your water quality.
When I was in the Peace Corps we had no way to measure salinity so we tasted the water - after a while you learned what the right and wrong values were!

Pretty cool you can just go to the creek to get rainbowfish!

Anyways, your observation about the nitrifying bacteria squares with the research that shows nitrifying bacteria do not like sunlight - specifically, they are inhibited by the UV wavelength in sunlight (and other light sources). This is one reason who don't find nitrifiers on the very top of the gravel bed.


"I can vouch for Aquarium Science Eco Start. I think it's just an Australian product but it bloody works. It's freeze dried and on some horrible 'porous mineral base' that turns the water white for three or four hours, but it really does seem to help."
This is interesting as no one has been able to develop a freeze-dried nitrifying mix that works - the whiteness is probably the chemical they add to the mix to help the bacteria go through the freeze-drying process - in many cases this is powdered skim milk!

Cheers

DrTim
 
hello Miss Wiggle

Nice to meet you.

Slightly cheeky question if you don't mind....... how did you find this thread? Did someone point it out to you or do you make a habit of nosing around fishkeeping forums? Just me being totally nosey, feel free to not answer! :rolleyes: :lol:

No worries, a friend pointed out the post and I looked around the forum and its seems pretty interesting so I decided to speak up.
I actually don't post at other forums but I do visit a few others.


this is what really interests me to be honest. As I said before I'm not massivley scientific, I attempt to take a practical approach to fishkeeping and the advice I give out, as such what really interests me is not the theoretical debate behind it but what we can do to get things working better for people stuck in the usual 'the fish shop guy said to just leave the tank for a week then put some danio's in' situations which are all too common.

We get a lot of people saying they've tried all sorts of bacteria in a bottle products on this forum, generally the only two which report any sucess are Bio Spira in the US and Bactinettes in the UK, however at best the results with these products are mixed (obviously this is just anecdotal evidence, but in terms of application in a variety of home aquaria you'd be hard pushed to get anything other than anecdotal evidence i think). There's obvious things like storage and use by dates which will impact on the effectivness of the products, but even when these things seem to have been looked after correctly they sometimes just don't work. I'd love to know your thoughts on why this is, and of course the thoughts of any of the rest of you lot

There are several factors that determine whether a mix will work. First off - the mix has to have the right bacteria for the aquarium environment. This seems simple but it is not. Just because an ammonia or nitrite-oxidizing bacteria works in the lab, in a flask or petri dish does not mean its is going to work in the aquarium. Many people seems to think that a nitrifier is a nitrifier is a nitrifier but that is not the case. These bacteria have preferences - just like your fish. You wouldn't put a goldfish in a saltwater tank and expect it to live so why would you expect that one bacteria species will live and thrive in all aquatic environments?

So right off the bat many people say "any mixes are worthless" based on experience with mixtures that have no chance of working because they have the wrong bacteria. Now assuming the mixture has the right bacteria the mix has to be treated right - which means no freezing (that kills the nitrifiers instantly) and the temperature should not get above 100 deg f (38 deg C) - these bacteria, especially the nitrite-oxidizing bacteria to not like these warm temperatures.

The next factor is maybe the hardest to understand - a lot of people want to think of bacteria as people too - meaning that if a person does not eat he/she will eventually die. This is not the case for bacteria - they are genetically programed to go through very long periods of time in bad conditions (meaning for nitrifiers no ammonia or nitrite). What is true is no bacteria gets 'better' in the bottle. Their activity and ability to react gets less and less over time. So it important to make sure they are in the best condition when first put in the bottle - this is a quality control function of the company bottling the bacteria. How a company might do this is maybe beyond this discussion but it is an important factor.

However, refrigeration slows down the rate at which the bacteria lose their ability to respond. Think of the bacteria as a re-chargeable battery - the more charge they have when they go into the bottle the better and the slower the charge dissipates the longer the bacteria will be good in the bottle. Well the best way to slow the dissipation is by refrigeration. The bacteria will not die if at room temperature for a few months but their charge dissipates faster than if they were kept in the refrigerator.

That's a quick summary - I hope it helps

Cheers,

DrTim
 
Ahhhh there you are !!! The Vice Admiral of "nitrifiers out of the tap". (still chuckling about that one). No, I had a PhD friend comment on your outrageous and embarrassing proclamation that nitrifying bacteria come to you through your tap water.

Ron, please direct your friend to Regan, Harrington, and Noguera: "Ammonia- and Nitrite-Oxidizing Bacterial Communities in a Pilot-Scale Chloraminated Drinking Water Distribution System" Applied and Enviromental Microbiology 2002. and Wolfe et al. "Occurrence of nitrification in chloranimated distribution systems" Journal (American Water Works Association), 1996 and Regan et al. "Diversity of nitrifying bacteria in full-scale cloranimated distribution systems" Water Research, 2003.

Both of these papers reported significant colonies of nitrifiers at water processing plants where tap water comes from. Wolfe et al. actually says "63% of U.S. chloramining utilites and 64% of Southern Australian utilities tested positive for nitrifying bacteria."

If you friend has proof otherwise, seems to me he could make quite a name for himself by publishing papers showing where these currently accepted papers are wrong. Or at least have your friend cite some paper refuting those cited above.

I got a water quality report from my county earlier this month. Covered all the chemicals and organisms detected in the water - it had a mention on bacteria. The water company acknowledges that "several types" (no further specifics) of "nitrate producing" bacteria were detected at least once at all test points in the system (the plant, pipes entering homes, out of the tap, and in the sewer lines leaving homes), but stress that none of the bacteria present pose any danger to humans or animals, and that nitrate levels are negligible (My test kit reads 0 out of the tap, for what it's worth).

The county's required to disclose any organism detected in the water system, but only if it's confirmed, they're technically allowed to conceal anything else. With all the disease scares lately, I doubt they'd disclose even a harmless bacteria for fear of what the local newspaper (who make Fox News look like ethical paragons) could make of it.


And to Dr. Hovanec, it's kind of humbling to see a "celebrity" of the hobby posting on the forum that taught me what I know. I hope you stick around, at least for a w hile - a lot of the discussion probably won't be that interesting for you, but your insights would be great in the scientific section, which I've always enjoyed reading.
 

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