Nitrate And 40Ppm Question...

[TwoTankAmin]

Much of the ammonia fw fish produce is excreted via the gills. More active fish produce more ammonia than less active ones. It is a misnomer in many cases to describe fish as vegetarian when the are actually omnivores. To you and me algae looks like a vegetable. The small crustaceans and other tiny critters it looks like a singles aparatment. So when fish are rasping algae off of things they are getting protein. Even vegetarian fish need protein. It is one of the key ingredient in the makeup of living things.
 
The point of the above illustration was to show that there isn't a specific amount of ammonia you can expect your fish to produce. It will depend to some extent. what, how much and how often you feed them among other considerations.
 
That said, fish that consume more vegetable matter than protein will produce more poop. And poop too turns to ammonia. So fish that produce more poop, produce more ammonia than those that produce less.
 
Or to put put it in more scientific terms:  

   If your fish run around a lot, eat too much meat and poop like dinosaurs, they are gonna turn the tank into an outhouse.

 

[Mamashack]

Is there somewhere that has the meanings of abbreviated words like TDS for instance. I know LFS is local fish store, but as to the difference between NH3 and NH3-N it soulds like you need a chemistry degree to understand it.
I use API freshwater master test kit - do I have to adjust the results and if so how? Why is it not straight forward? Or am I being thick? My tank results are 40-80 ppm on the Nitrate test since the latest fry were born and 10-25 prior to that. (To be honest I can't see a difference between the 2 colours on the result card - they both look exactly the same to me!) I have platies - some of which are fry - what should I being aiming for? In simple terms if possible - I have a blind spot when it comes to chemical formulae!
Many thanks in anticipation

 

[eaglesaquarium]

TDS - total dissolved solids
 
NH3 - ammonia molecule
NH4 - ammonium ion
 
NH3- N -> concentration of NITROGEN atoms ONLY.
NH4-N -> Same as above...
 
 
NO2 -> Nitrite ion
NO2 - N -> concentration of NITROGEN atoms ONLY
 
 
NO3 -> Nitrate ion
NO3-N -> concentration of NITROGEN atoms ONLY
 
 
 
The process of nitrogen cycling is this:
 
NH3/NH4 converts to NO2 which in turn converts to NO3.
 
If you use a test kit for NH3, NO2 and NO3 it can either be measuring the PPM (mg/L) concentration of the ION, or the NITROGEN atom.
 
Note:  in all cases above, the ion contains only 1 NITROGEN ATOM.  So, 1ppm NH3-N converts to 1ppm NO2-N and then to 1ppm NO3-N.  Conversely, if you have a test kit that measures the ION, rather than nitrogen atoms, then 1ppm NH3 ION converts to 2.7ppm NO2 ION and then to 3.6ppm  NO3 ION, because the resulting ions are heavier than the original... basically trading the lightest atom in the universe (HYDROGEN) for an atom that is 16times heavier (OXYGEN).
 
 
NH3 has a mass of 17g/mol, while NO2 has a mass of 46 g/mol (for a ratio of 1:2.7)...
 
NO3 has a mass of 62 g/mol (for a ration of NH3:NO3 of 1:3.6)...  
 
In other words, when measuring your levels of NH3, NO2, and NO3 - the levels you read are highly dependent on whether you are measuring just the nitrogen present in the various forms, or if you are measuring the ION presence.  The ionic presence will always read dramatically higher than the levels for the nitrogen atoms because of the extra mass associated with the other atoms present in the ion.

 

[Mamashack]

Thanks Eaglesaquarium for the above explanation. I already understood the process from ammonia to nitrite to nitrate, but not the rest of it. I think I've got it now (tho don't test me on it!) However on the API master kit it says it is testing NH3, NH4, NO2 and NO3 with no mention whatsoever of the extra-N anywhere so is it not testing the ammonia, nitrite and nitrate ions rather than the nitrogen atoms? Surely if it meant the nitrogen atoms it would say so. Wouldn't it? Or am I being too simplistic?
 
I've done a 20% water change and retested the NH3/4 and NO3 with seemingly very little change in the results. I'm not sure if that's because I can't see the difference between 40ppm and 80ppm colours on the NO3 result card (actually I can't see the difference between 10ppm and 20ppm either and I'm not colour-blind as far as I know.) I've also tested the tap water for NO3 and it's either 10 or 20ppm to start with. Is that significant and if it is, is there something I can do about it?
Sorry to be a thicko, but chemistry was always a complete mystery to me.

 

[daizeUK]

The API kit does indeed measure ion concentration.  Honestly, unless you need to read scientific journals I wouldn't worry about nitrogen measurements - you can ignore it

 

[Mamashack]

The API kit does indeed measure ion concentration.  Honestly, unless you need to read scientific journals I wouldn't worry about nitrogen measurements - you can ignore it

 
Thanks Daize! Does anyone else have problems distinguishing some of the colours on the API results card? Or is it just me? Have I wasted my money on this master test kit? Always used test strips until recently and the differences in results seems to be quite significant in terms of the numbers altho I guess the water actually remains the same.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

The differences are difficult to distinguish, especially on the nitrate kit.  But, it is VITAL to have a reliable test (ammonia and nitrite) for when emergencies come along.  You need to be certain that the fish are not suffering from ammonia and nitrite poisoning as well as whatever else may be going wrong.  Some medicines can affect the bacteria we work so hard to cultivate, so whenever you treat your tank, you always want to keep a close eye on things like that.
 
 
The nitrate issue is a good question.  Generally, the nitrate in your tap is going to limit you a bit (as it does me) concerning which fish you can keep.  The most nitrate sensitive species, such as discus, won't be an option, but nearly all the others are.  Planting the tank heavily will help to keep the nitrates down and many of these plants will actually use ammonia from the water directly as their source of nitrogen, which will help to keep the nitrates low.  Feeding more sparingly will also help... the fish need far less food than many fishkeepers actually feed them.  Personally, I fast my fish one or two days a week as a regular routine.  In the wild, these fish wouldn't be feeding on such nutrient-rich food so regularly.  So, forcing them to graze the tank for algae, microorganisms, etc. is a good practice and keeps them active - searching for food.

 

[Mamashack]

The differences are difficult to distinguish, especially on the nitrate kit.  But, it is VITAL to have a reliable test (ammonia and nitrite) for when emergencies come along.  You need to be certain that the fish are not suffering from ammonia and nitrite poisoning as well as whatever else may be going wrong.  Some medicines can affect the bacteria we work so hard to cultivate, so whenever you treat your tank, you always want to keep a close eye on things like that.
 
 
The nitrate issue is a good question.  Generally, the nitrate in your tap is going to limit you a bit (as it does me) concerning which fish you can keep.  The most nitrate sensitive species, such as discus, won't be an option, but nearly all the others are.  Planting the tank heavily will help to keep the nitrates down and many of these plants will actually use ammonia from the water directly as their source of nitrogen, which will help to keep the nitrates low.  Feeding more sparingly will also help... the fish need far less food than many fishkeepers actually feed them.  Personally, I fast my fish one or two days a week as a regular routine.  In the wild, these fish wouldn't be feeding on such nutrient-rich food so regularly.  So, forcing them to graze the tank for algae, microorganisms, etc. is a good practice and keeps them active - searching for food.

 
Thanks again! Thankfully the ammonia was reduced to 0-0.25ppm after a 20% pwc (I know that one! lol) tho I couldn't see any significant reduction in the nitrate level. I only have the platies as listed in my signature. I may well be over feeding as I have young fry in the tank and to be honest am guessing with the quantities of food. Is it ok to leave the youngest fry to fend for themselves for a day at this stage? They'll be just a week old tonight. Also I've been avoiding cleaning the the gravel again because of the fry, so maybe I need to restart doing that? The tank does have a largish live plant in the corner (the fry sanctuary) but maybe I should get another to be on the safe side. Thanks again for the suggestions!

 

[eaglesaquarium]

More plants is always good.  As far as "fasting" fry, it generally isn't recommended.  BUT, with that said, I've been fasting my tank regularly, and I've had several corydoras fry grow up in my tank with NO intervention from me.  The live plants actually are home to a variety of microorganisms that normally would feed the fry in the wild, things like "infusoria" and the like.  I have a fairly good number of real plants and the fry do just fine without any special treatment from me.
 
 
A 20% PWC won't do much to lower high levels of any contaminant in the tank.  Imagine you have 100ppm nitrate, a 20% water change (with 0ppm nitrate tap water) would only lower the levels to 80ppm.  Not noticeable on the API test kit.  On the other hand, doing a 50% PWC would lower the levels to 50ppm, and a 75% PWC would drop it to 25ppm.  Personally, I am a fan of LARGE water changes.  The 20% water change schedule that is so often discussed is best for lowly stocked tanks.  More heavily stocked tanks really benefit from a much more aggressive water change schedule.  I do 25% weekly, a 50% monthly, and a 75% every 6 months.  In the summer I do even MORE water changes than that, and do a 25% water change twice a week, sometimes 3 times a week.  I use this water for my flowers in the summer, and I use it to emulate a "rainy" season for the fish.  It works for me, and I think the fish actually appreciate the change in seasons like this.

 

[Mamashack]

"A 20% PWC won't do much to lower high levels of any contaminant in the tank.  Imagine you have 100ppm nitrate, a 20% water change (with 0ppm nitrate tap water) would only lower the levels to 80ppm.  Not noticeable on the API test kit.  On the other hand, doing a 50% PWC would lower the levels to 50ppm, and a 75% PWC would drop it to 25ppm.  Personally, I am a fan of LARGE water changes.  The 20% water change schedule that is so often discussed is best for lowly stocked tanks.  More heavily stocked tanks really benefit from a much more aggressive water change schedule.  I do 25% weekly, a 50% monthly, and a 75% every 6 months.  In the summer I do even MORE water changes than that, and do a 25% water change twice a week, sometimes 3 times a week.  I use this water for my flowers in the summer, and I use it to emulate a "rainy" season for the fish.  It works for me, and I think the fish actually appreciate the change in seasons like this."
 
Thanks for the heads up. I'll increase the amount I exchange and try the schedule you use. It's only this last week that my tank has become overstocked because of the new fry and I probably haven't helped with actively feeding the fry (and the greedy older ones!) even tho I was feeding them less than the recommended amount. This is the largest group of fry that have survived the female adult's predatory nature. The large plant has worked too well in that respect! I will definitely get another one tho as you suggest.
Cheers eaglesaquarium!

 

[Mamashack]

Just out of curiosity, do any of you use a Python for water changes? If so, are they any good? They look good on the blurb and videos I've seen, but it's better if someone can recommend or give a user's opinion. Am in UK and not sure if they're available over here, but Ebay sems to be a good place for things like that.


Just checked and there's one on Ebay for £53 so if anyone has used one and would like to offer an opinion I'd be grateful.

 

[snazy]

I use one and I can't live without it with my 4 tanks and soon to be 5.
You can actually make one yourself pretty easily by getting the proper double tap connector, or even purchasing just the replacement part one of "brand" python and buying the hose and the siphon part yourself.
Either way, there are a lot of different ways to make one up. I think there's was a nice thread somewhere here about a DIY python.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

I just use a hose and faucet attachment... It works on exactly the same principle, except that instead of just running water to create the suction, I run water into the hose (into the tank) until the bubbles stop and the water starts to flow, then I just remove the connection to the faucet and the syphon is created.  I go back to the tank and begin vacuuming up the gunk.   It works very easily and is FAR cheaper.

 

[snazy]

Well, for a thing such as a tool to make the water changes 10 times easier, I'd go back and pay 5 times the price I paid to be honest. It's made water changes a pleasure. The easier the better but the way eagles suggests above is rather easy too but just doesn't give you flexibility. If it wasn't for the stop feature on my python at the siphon side, I would have siphoned out all my corys. They all go running towards the siphon for some reason.

 

[Mamashack]

Thanks I'll give it some serious thought!