Fish gasping
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Did the fish have the cream grey patches on them before this started
I would add a heap of salt and see what happens. They definitely don't look well though.
Do a big (75%) water change and complete gravel clean before adding salt. Clean the filter too if it hasn't been done in the last 2 weeks.
Make sure any new water is free of chlorine or chloramine before it's added to the tank.
If there's no improvement after a week with salt, post another video and some more pictures.
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You can add rock salt (often sold as aquarium salt), sea salt, swimming pool salt, or any non iodised salt (sodium chloride) to the aquarium at the dose rate of 1 heaped tablespoon per 20 litres (5 gallons) of water. If there is no improvement after 48 hours you can double that dose rate so there is 2 heaped tablespoons of salt per 20 litres.
If you only have livebearers (guppies, platies, swordtails, mollies), goldfish or rainbowfish in the tank you can double that dose rate, so you would add 2 heaped tablespoons per 20 litres and if there is no improvement after 48 hours, then increase it so there is a total of 4 heaped tablespoons of salt per 20 litres.
Keep the salt level like this for at least 2 weeks but no longer than 4 weeks otherwise kidney damage can occur. Kidney damage is more likely to occur in fish from soft water (tetras, Corydoras, angelfish, Bettas & gouramis, loaches) that are exposed to high levels of salt for an extended period of time, and is not an issue with livebearers, rainbowfish or other salt tolerant species.
The salt will not affect the beneficial filter bacteria but the higher dose rate (4 heaped tablespoons per 20 litres) will affect some plants and some snails. The lower dose rate (1-2 heaped tablespoons per 20 litres) will not affect fish, plants, shrimp or snails.
After you use salt and the fish have recovered, you do a 10% water change each day for a week using only fresh water that has been dechlorinated. Then do a 20% water change each day for a week. Then you can do bigger water changes after that. This dilutes the salt out of the tank slowly so it doesn't harm the fish.
If you do water changes while using salt, you need to treat the new water with salt before adding it to the tank. This will keep the salt level stable in the tank and minimise stress on the fish.
When you first add salt, add the salt to a small bucket of tank water and dissolve the salt. Then slowly pour the salt water into the tank near the filter outlet. Add the salt over a couple of minutes.
I would add a heap of salt and see what happens. They definitely don't look well though.
Do a big (75%) water change and complete gravel clean before adding salt. Clean the filter too if it hasn't been done in the last 2 weeks.
Make sure any new water is free of chlorine or chloramine before it's added to the tank.
If there's no improvement after a week with salt, post another video and some more pictures.
----------------------
You can add rock salt (often sold as aquarium salt), sea salt, swimming pool salt, or any non iodised salt (sodium chloride) to the aquarium at the dose rate of 1 heaped tablespoon per 20 litres (5 gallons) of water. If there is no improvement after 48 hours you can double that dose rate so there is 2 heaped tablespoons of salt per 20 litres.
If you only have livebearers (guppies, platies, swordtails, mollies), goldfish or rainbowfish in the tank you can double that dose rate, so you would add 2 heaped tablespoons per 20 litres and if there is no improvement after 48 hours, then increase it so there is a total of 4 heaped tablespoons of salt per 20 litres.
Keep the salt level like this for at least 2 weeks but no longer than 4 weeks otherwise kidney damage can occur. Kidney damage is more likely to occur in fish from soft water (tetras, Corydoras, angelfish, Bettas & gouramis, loaches) that are exposed to high levels of salt for an extended period of time, and is not an issue with livebearers, rainbowfish or other salt tolerant species.
The salt will not affect the beneficial filter bacteria but the higher dose rate (4 heaped tablespoons per 20 litres) will affect some plants and some snails. The lower dose rate (1-2 heaped tablespoons per 20 litres) will not affect fish, plants, shrimp or snails.
After you use salt and the fish have recovered, you do a 10% water change each day for a week using only fresh water that has been dechlorinated. Then do a 20% water change each day for a week. Then you can do bigger water changes after that. This dilutes the salt out of the tank slowly so it doesn't harm the fish.
If you do water changes while using salt, you need to treat the new water with salt before adding it to the tank. This will keep the salt level stable in the tank and minimise stress on the fish.
When you first add salt, add the salt to a small bucket of tank water and dissolve the salt. Then slowly pour the salt water into the tank near the filter outlet. Add the salt over a couple of minutes.
Laurabhspt
Fish Fanatic
I didn’t notice any patches. As mentioned earlier that one who has rubbed her scales off was flashing a bit and rubbing herself on things. I thought it was ich coming back or possibly stress because all of these are really nervous/skittish fish. The girls all freak out when you turn the light off, if you walk past the tank with the light off etc. the boys in the larger tank, are sociable and come up as soon as they see you, will eat out your hand, nibble your fingers etc. it’s really strange.
If I do a massive water change as well as filter clean etc will I not then get an ammonia spike? And am I treating the whole tank not just quarantining the symptomatic?
Big water changes won't affect beneficial filter bacteria as long as the new water is free of chlorine or chloramine before it's added to the tank.
Cleaning the filter and doing a water change won't affect anything either because you normally clean the filter media in a bucket of tank water and re-use the media. the dirty water gets poured on the garden or lawn outside.
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Yes, you need to treat the main tank because the disease (pretty sure it's an external protozoan infection like Costia, Chilodonella or Trichodina) will be in the main tank.
Laurabhspt
Fish Fanatic
Thankyou! Very helpful
Water changes benefit the fish - if you haven't been changing at least 25% on a weekly to 10 days basis, that has probably contributed to the problem. But as Colin says, treat the whole tank. I'd add, since these creatures have a way of spreading, you should keep a sharp eye on the male tank too.
Salt is a harsh chenical for softwater fish, but swords don't mind it and it should do the job on the parasites, if they are present. If not, it won't harm the swords.
Reduce the temps, and get a water change going after the treatment and it should be clear sailing.
Salt is a harsh chenical for softwater fish, but swords don't mind it and it should do the job on the parasites, if they are present. If not, it won't harm the swords.
Reduce the temps, and get a water change going after the treatment and it should be clear sailing.
TwoTankAmin
Fish Connoisseur
There are any number of reason why a low level of ammonia such as .25 ppm may not be real. The first and most obvious two are either an expired test kit or user error. But if we eliminate these as the cause there are still other reasons which are common.
There are things in our water which can cause a false reading, especially a low level one. Iron is one such thing, and there area a few others.
Next, dechlors that also neutralize ammonia can:
What gives one a good clue that having .25 ppm of ammonia in their tank on a persistent basis would be virtually impossible to create intentionally. if the reading is accurate one has to assume one of two things. One a tank insufficiently cycled should have any measurable ammonia. if one is cycling that .25 can not stay constant, it must either go up or go down. Not being cycled means it should rise as the fish will be making more ammonia than the bacteria can handle and the ammonia rises until the bacteria multiply.
If the tank is at the point of cycling where ammonia is going down, then that .25 should disappear pretty fast- hours and not many of them. So, your .25 should either rise or fall, but it should not stay they the same, unless it is not a real reading.
Next, if you have ammonia in the tank not yet being handled or due to something harming the bacteria, you should be seeing nitrite as well as ammonia. But you read that at 0. Since what can harm the ammonia bacteria should also affect the nitrite ones, if is not common to see ammonia levels not followed by nitrite levels. So the lack of nitrite suggests the ammonia reading is not real.
Finally, the end product of the cycle (in the absence of denitrification) is nitrate. You most certainly have that. So we can also conclude that the cycle is working in your tank unless that nitrate is coming in with your tap water. bear in mind that ammonia can evaporate from water but nitrite and nitrate cannot.
Fially. the best clue of all here is the fact that only some of the fish are having issues. if the cause were ammonia it should be affecting all of the fish to some degree, This is especially true since it is a single species. Normally, different species can tolerate different levels of the three nitrogen compounds with which cycling is involved.
There is one thing about cycling and the related issues which is important to remember. There is established science surrounding this stuff. We know how fast the bacteria can multiply, we know what types of bacteria or typical in our tanks. We know that establishing the cycle follows a series of steps. The only difference is how fast any tank muight cycle. We also know what can stall a cycle or help to accelerate it.
Finally, the scientific method assumes the possibility that what we thought we knew is actually not right because research finds the fault and then works to establish the "new" facts. But at any given time the science is the best we have with which to work. Perhaps the best part of science and research is the fact that for any study to reach a valid conclusion requires that if another group performs the same experiment that it will yield the same results.
What this means for cycling is that it is possible to determine what may be wrong if we have all of the information. That would be tap water parameters, tanks contents, test readings, method used to create ammonia and water changes. More importantly, we need to have this information over time not just a single reading.
Given all of the facts posted in this thread, is is not so hard to figure out what may or may not be happening.
I will confess I did make a couple of assumptions here. one is that the tank was cycled. Even if the individual fish have a bit of a difference between how fast ammonia levels show they are suffering, they should all show some levels of ammonia poisoning. The fact that multiple fish are dying or gasping and others are just dine would indicate that ammonia etc, is not the cause. Nitrate poisoning works similarly to nitrite poisoning, but it takes a lot more nitrate than 40 ppm to produce that result.
The add in the fact that fish are dying and that more fish seem to become ill suggests something contagious is at work. At least it does for me. If we can eliminate ammonia or nitrite as the cause, then we must look elsewhere.
One last observation here. Higher levels of ammonia than .25 ppm can definitely damage gills. So if you recently cycled your tank and exposed the fish to higher ammonia levels, this could take a bit of time to show itself. One fish dies faster than another by a few days. But then all of them should be showing some signs and they are not.
When it comes to keeping fish and illness/infestations we are forced to be detectives. We cannot take out fish to a vet. Most of us lack the diagnostic knowledge and tools to do the science needed to assess the situation. All we have are behavioral clues and any symptoms we can actually see. And even then we may not have a clue.
p.s.
Apologies- I just looked at your pictures above. I suggest you read some about columnaris with the idea that you can eliminate it as the cause. Columnaris is often called mouth fungus or saddleback disease because of the white patches at the base of the dorsal fin or a white mouth which may also appear to involve fungus. However, the disease is bacterial not fungal and would require an antibiotic to remedy.
There are things in our water which can cause a false reading, especially a low level one. Iron is one such thing, and there area a few others.
Next, dechlors that also neutralize ammonia can:
What gives one a good clue that having .25 ppm of ammonia in their tank on a persistent basis would be virtually impossible to create intentionally. if the reading is accurate one has to assume one of two things. One a tank insufficiently cycled should have any measurable ammonia. if one is cycling that .25 can not stay constant, it must either go up or go down. Not being cycled means it should rise as the fish will be making more ammonia than the bacteria can handle and the ammonia rises until the bacteria multiply.
If the tank is at the point of cycling where ammonia is going down, then that .25 should disappear pretty fast- hours and not many of them. So, your .25 should either rise or fall, but it should not stay they the same, unless it is not a real reading.
Next, if you have ammonia in the tank not yet being handled or due to something harming the bacteria, you should be seeing nitrite as well as ammonia. But you read that at 0. Since what can harm the ammonia bacteria should also affect the nitrite ones, if is not common to see ammonia levels not followed by nitrite levels. So the lack of nitrite suggests the ammonia reading is not real.
Finally, the end product of the cycle (in the absence of denitrification) is nitrate. You most certainly have that. So we can also conclude that the cycle is working in your tank unless that nitrate is coming in with your tap water. bear in mind that ammonia can evaporate from water but nitrite and nitrate cannot.
Fially. the best clue of all here is the fact that only some of the fish are having issues. if the cause were ammonia it should be affecting all of the fish to some degree, This is especially true since it is a single species. Normally, different species can tolerate different levels of the three nitrogen compounds with which cycling is involved.
There is one thing about cycling and the related issues which is important to remember. There is established science surrounding this stuff. We know how fast the bacteria can multiply, we know what types of bacteria or typical in our tanks. We know that establishing the cycle follows a series of steps. The only difference is how fast any tank muight cycle. We also know what can stall a cycle or help to accelerate it.
Finally, the scientific method assumes the possibility that what we thought we knew is actually not right because research finds the fault and then works to establish the "new" facts. But at any given time the science is the best we have with which to work. Perhaps the best part of science and research is the fact that for any study to reach a valid conclusion requires that if another group performs the same experiment that it will yield the same results.
What this means for cycling is that it is possible to determine what may be wrong if we have all of the information. That would be tap water parameters, tanks contents, test readings, method used to create ammonia and water changes. More importantly, we need to have this information over time not just a single reading.
Given all of the facts posted in this thread, is is not so hard to figure out what may or may not be happening.
I will confess I did make a couple of assumptions here. one is that the tank was cycled. Even if the individual fish have a bit of a difference between how fast ammonia levels show they are suffering, they should all show some levels of ammonia poisoning. The fact that multiple fish are dying or gasping and others are just dine would indicate that ammonia etc, is not the cause. Nitrate poisoning works similarly to nitrite poisoning, but it takes a lot more nitrate than 40 ppm to produce that result.
The add in the fact that fish are dying and that more fish seem to become ill suggests something contagious is at work. At least it does for me. If we can eliminate ammonia or nitrite as the cause, then we must look elsewhere.
One last observation here. Higher levels of ammonia than .25 ppm can definitely damage gills. So if you recently cycled your tank and exposed the fish to higher ammonia levels, this could take a bit of time to show itself. One fish dies faster than another by a few days. But then all of them should be showing some signs and they are not.
When it comes to keeping fish and illness/infestations we are forced to be detectives. We cannot take out fish to a vet. Most of us lack the diagnostic knowledge and tools to do the science needed to assess the situation. All we have are behavioral clues and any symptoms we can actually see. And even then we may not have a clue.
p.s.
Apologies- I just looked at your pictures above. I suggest you read some about columnaris with the idea that you can eliminate it as the cause. Columnaris is often called mouth fungus or saddleback disease because of the white patches at the base of the dorsal fin or a white mouth which may also appear to involve fungus. However, the disease is bacterial not fungal and would require an antibiotic to remedy.
Laurabhspt
Fish Fanatic
Just an update for anyone who may be following this, and apologies for the delay! I lost the two that were really gasping, and a third who wasn’t actively showing any signs when I started the treatment suggested, I’m guessing that could have been stress related though after such a large change etc. but the one with the patchy colours who was swimming a tad weird, she survived! As did the others after following the advice on the forum. So a big thankyou for everyone’s help, I’m quarantining some plants so I can plant the tank, but on the whole much happier girls now! Thankyou!
I'm sorry you lost the ones that were gasping, but happy to hear that the others are doing well now, and to see a happy update! Crises are never fun to get through, but the beauty of this forum is having people here who can help and talk us through them. Thank you for making the effort to update the post!
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