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Newbie - Completely Confused

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sdajacks

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Ok, so I've always wanted to get a tropical fish tank and finally bought one in April this year. I had searched round the Internet for the basics (missed this site unfortunately!) and spoke to one of the assistants at my LFS to go over exactly what I should be doing. I went for a 30L Biorb due to the size of where I could put it and thought the rounded shape looked pretty cool (though I'm regretting getting this tank now as the roundedness of the tank makes looking at it very impractical as it magnifies areas and makes it hard to see). Anyway, I walked away with tank, addiotional equipment (e.g. heater for tropical fish, a castle to go round the air filter tube and a couple of plastic plants) and enough information (I thought!) to get the tank up and running before I put fish in there.

I set up the tank as described in a few articles I had looked, put tap water in the tank, set the heater off to 24 degrees and did a few water changes inc. putting in the provided stress coat and stress zyme provided in the tank's kit. Everything looked good, so after 1-2 weeks I decided to get some fish, again going back to same LFS. They recommended 5 neon tetras about 1cm long (promoting an offer they had) and said they will be fine to put in at once as the first fish. As told by LFS, I left the bag of water with fish in the tank for 30 mins to get them used to the tank temp and environment and then opened them into the tank with the water from fish shop.

We did weekly water changes, turning the heater off, vaccumming and extracting 5L water (20%). Then we add the same amount of tap water from cold tap to a bucket and leave for 30 mins to get to room temp and add straight to the tank with some stress coat and nothing else (as per advice from LFS). Straight after weekly water changes we found that the fish seem to hide low down and their colour would go subtlely but eventually come back in the morning so thought this was fairly normal as the fish need time to get used to the water change. Everything seemingling going ok (all fish still alive) and then 3 fish went missing. We managed to find them in the filter - 1 dead and the other still alive. Bemused by how they got there we just assumed it was at the time our electric went for 10 mins and they swam down the tube to the filter and getting trapped when the electric and pump was working again. We could think it couldn't be anything else.

1 month later and much deliberating we eventually decided we could get more fish. Again, we went back to same LFS and agreed to get 3 rainbow tetra and 3 shrimp as we were told they all can live in the tank happilly and the shrimp clean up the tank (apparently!). So now we had 4 neon tetras, 3 rainbow fish and 3 shrimp (a balanced mix of fish we were tol!). Again we put the fish in the tank the same way as before. The shrimp seemed happy enough but the rainbow fish were very shy and we attributed this to getting used to the tank again.

Unfortuantely we had to exectedly go away for 7 days 2 weeks after getting the new fish and we returned to same LFS and was recommended getting a pyramid feeder to gradually feed the fish as we could not get anyone to feed them when we were away. When we got back 3 neon tetras and 2 rainbow tetras had white spot and they all looked very pale so we rushed to the LFS to get some advice. They advise that we needed to bring in a sample of water for them to test. After returning again they tested the water and said that all levels were fine from a strip test apart from the pH, which was too alkaline and this needed to be brought down just by daily 20% water changes for a week and then return back to weekly changes and hopefully everything ok though some fish may not survive. Unfortunately all fish died in that following week and all but the shrimp and 1 rainbow fish died over the 2 weeks following.

We went back to the LFS to get advice and get an valid explanation for why all the fish were dying. They said that the neon tatras like to go against the current and could have swam down the air filder tube and got trapped in the water. As they had recommended these fish then I wasn't too impressed with that answer. Then I asked why several fish had got white spot only after 1-2 weeks of putting in the shrimp and rainbow tetras and they said it was probably too much for the fish and they couldn't cope.

So now I'm left with 3 shrimp and 1 rainbow fish, doing weekly 20% water changes (the rainbow fish hies after I change the water for some time but is very active generally) hoping for the best.

I'm very reluctant to get anymore fish but with the shape of the tank it's not much pleasure when you have to hunt round to find the 1 and only fish in there.

Is anyone there that can help me in telling me where I have gone drastically wrong from what I'm describing I doing (water changes, different chemicals to add or in different amounts, different frequency for water changes, specific checks etc), what I need to start doing differently and whether I need to go to a different LFS? I've checked out the forums for lots of advice and this has really helped from a "if I saw this forum before I got a tank" point of view but I need to look at what I have and see where i go to ensure I have a happy tank with the fish I currently have.

Any help will be very much appreciated.

Steve
 
Do you have a liquid water testing kit? If not then this is the first thing you need. Once you know your readings for ammonia and nitrIte then you have a starting point.

You should have a read of the beginners bit about cycling etc.

All you have done wrong is take the advice from the LFS - we've all learnt they are out for the cash not the welfare of the fish.

Oh for future reference fish will be fine without food for 7 days as long as they have clean water and are healthy.
 
woah.....woah...............woah there...
so many dead fish,etc etc whata mess.
just turn everything off and clean and just reset the tank up,then take a small sponge and tie it with rubber bands on the filter intake to stop those filter kills. and then instead of waiting a week and adding fish. add tap water,add dechlorinator then do a fishless cycle(search on google for fishless cycling instructions) then do a 50% water change with water conditioner after the tank has cycled and stock your tank(btw you severely overstocked your tank before...id suggest like add a cheap 50/50 light and grow some java moss in there which would look great and put like a couple of cherry shrimp in there or something....that's it...its too small for anything...i think.and please buy an api master freshwater test kit set they're quite cheap and will probably last a whole yearand can you post pics of the filter, visual size,fish,decor,etc...as i have custom tanks built as premade tanks are'nt availible in pakistan so i dont have a clue what a biorb looks like...well thats another story.
shahrez
 
I bought a strip test from teh LFS, put the strip into the water, wait 1 min and then look at the colours and their levels on the colour charts (however, must admit if they are not right I'm not too sure how to ensure they get balanced out). Everything seems to be in normal range, even the pH but apparently that is too high. When should I test in reletion to making a water change? I've seen on here that the strip tests are inaccurate so getting a better water test kit sounds like a good plan. Any recommendations for a good kit?

quote name='indigoj' date='Aug 10 2009, 08:42 PM' post='2492482']
Do you have a liquid water testing kit? If not then this is the first thing you need. Once you know your readings for ammonia and nitrIte then you have a starting point.

You should have a read of the beginners bit about cycling etc.

All you have done wrong is take the advice from the LFS - we've all learnt they are out for the cash not the welfare of the fish.
[/quote]
 
the API is a good one that most here use. Mine was £15 on ebay but £18-22 is average.

Don't worry about your PH - test your tap water after leaving it stand over night if that is high then you're going to have to live with it - not worth messing about with that at this stage.

Test before and about 1hour after a water change for now to get used to the results and using the liquid tests.

Ask loads of questions it's the best way to learn and we don't want your money :)
 
What shall I do with the rainbow tetra and shrimp while I set everything up from scratch again? I was reluctant to do more than 20% water change due to the fish being shy and lacking colour for some time - Is this normal or just due to how I have looked after the tank previously?

Not sure how to upload pictures as it only comes up with a URL link and not a link to my PC HDD. Here is the link to the manaufacturer's web site though: http://www.reef-one.com/biOrb-30

Not sure if sponge suitable as it is only a fairly narrow tube. Also I can only have plastic plants as recommended by Biorb.

Should I be putting the water conditioner in the tap bucket in the bucket or striaght in the tank after putting the new water in there? Sorry for the thick questions and probably shows by newbie status and lack of planning.

Thanks for the links. Will check out now.


shahrezsyed said:
woah.....woah...............woah there...
so many dead fish,etc etc whata mess.
just turn everything off and clean and just reset the tank up,then take a small sponge and tie it with rubber bands on the filter intake to stop those filter kills. and then instead of waiting a week and adding fish. add tap water,add dechlorinator then do a fishless cycle(search on google for fishless cycling instructions) then do a 50% water change with water conditioner after the tank has cycled and stock your tank(btw you severely overstocked your tank before...id suggest like add a cheap 50/50 light and grow some java moss in there which would look great and put like a couple of cherry shrimp in there or something....that's it...its too small for anything...i think.and please buy an api master freshwater test kit set they're quite cheap and will probably last a whole yearand can you post pics of the filter, visual size,fish,decor,etc...as i have custom tanks built as premade tanks are'nt availible in pakistan so i dont have a clue what a biorb looks like...well thats another story.
shahrez
Click to expand...
 
 
Steve,

IMO you haven't done anything wrong. You asked advice from somebody you thought you could trust, it just turns out that you couldn't trust them.

First things first. You have a VERY small tank. You aren't going to be able to keep a great deal in there. The best way to simplify a tank and what you can stock is to have one inch of fish for every gallon of water. Remember that what you buy will probably grow, so you need to research what you have, what size it will EVENTUALLY be, and as a basic rule, stick to what I just said.

Next..... The first thing you need in the tank (water apart, I'm assuming no-one is that thick) is bacteria. They will live on the media inside your filter. Now, the only way of knowing what you have there, or if it is sufficient, is to buy a liquid based water test kit. Don't be persuaded to buy sticks like your LFS gave you. They are notoriously unreliable, many here will just tell you to start a fire with them. You need, first and foremost, to be able to test for Ph, Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrates. Basically your fish produce ammonia. This ammonia is very detrimental to the health of your fish. The presence of ammonia, after a period of time, leads to the growth of bacteria inside your filter. These bacteria will consume the ammonia and turn it into nitrites (with an i). These are also very bad for the health of your fish. Again, after a period of time, more bacteria grow on your filter media to process this. They will turn nitrites (with an i) into nitrates (with an a). Nitrates can be tolerated by fish up to a certain level. The only way to remove nitrates is by changing the water, hence a weekly 20% water change. What you need right now, as someone suggested before me, is the test kit to understand what chemicals are present in your tank, and at what levels they are present. Until you provide this information there is very little we can offer in terms of help.

You basically have two choices, realistically only one. The one fish you have isn't going to produce enough waste ammonia to encourage the growth of bacteria. If you had enough fish alive, you could do what is called a fish-in-cycle. You can find all the details you need about this on
this link.

However, as your fish and two shrimp won't probably produce enough waste to do this, you can either buy another fish or two and do this fish in cycle (which will either shorten their lives or kill them) or you can do the more humane thing;

Get that fish and two shrimp back to an/your LFS and do a fishless cycle. You can find all the information you need on that HERE.

I think that's going to cover it for now, it's certainly enough for you to be going on with! :p

Harry

P.S. That temp. was fine, but it isn't nearly the first of your worries. Get the test kit, try to get the fish/shrimp re-homed and then get back here with the details.
 
Thanks everyone for all the amazing advice. I'm already on the case with the water test kit and reading up more than I did before.

I'm now completely stuck with re-homing the rainbow tetra and 3 shrimp. The only people I know who have tropical fish have a slightly larger tank with a fairly large angel fish and mini shark type (sorry not sure what it is) so not sure if they will fit and whether they will let me re-home the fish as my tank has had fish that have been infected with white spot. Do I have any other optons? I'm getting a little attached to that last fish as I am now amazed from your comments he has survived at all.

Also, what was the probable reason for most of the fish to have white spot? Would this be the way I maintained the tank or would they have the disease beforehand or both?
 
sdajacks said:
Thanks everyone for all the amazing advice. I'm already on the case with the water test kit and reading up more than I did before.

I'm now completely stuck with re-homing the rainbow tetra and 3 shrimp. The only people I know who have tropical fish have a slightly larger tank with a fairly large angel fish and mini shark type (sorry not sure what it is) so not sure if they will fit and whether they will let me re-home the fish as my tank has had fish that have been infected with white spot. Do I have any other optons? I'm getting a little attached to that last fish as I am now amazed from your comments he has survived at all.

Also, what was the probable reason for most of the fish to have white spot? Would this be the way I maintained the tank or would they have the disease beforehand or both?
Click to expand...

Steve

I'm no expert, but I'd guess the bad water quality and overstocking would probably be enough to start the white spot. I've got my own case going on now, and I'm pretty sure it's come around after I did a substrate change. Seem's even that was enough.

Again, I know you're attached to that fish, I'm attached to mine, but it would be for the best to re-home him. Have you successfully treated the white-spot?

In the mean time, do a 50% water change twice a day to make sure they are ok. Make sure you use dechlorinator, and try to match the temp of the water to the tank as best you can using your fingers.

You're doing the right thing now. Take comfort from that, don't think about the lost fish.

Harry
 
indigoj said:
Do you have a liquid water testing kit? If not then this is the first thing you need. Once you know your readings for ammonia and nitrIte then you have a starting point.

You should have a read of the beginners bit about cycling etc.

All you have done wrong is take the advice from the LFS - we've all learnt they are out for the cash not the welfare of the fish.

Oh for future reference fish will be fine without food for 7 days as long as they have clean water and are healthy.
Click to expand...

RE feeding fish while on holiday. you can buy slow release feeding blocks that last weekend/1 week/2 weeks (depending on type) on Ebay or from lfs. Cost about £1.50 each and will feed 12 average fish of all types -used them for mollies, swordtails, zebra cichlids and even golden rudd. You can cut up a block if there are fewer fish in a tank. Got the largest ones for mine and they lasted 2 weeks. Returned home to find healthy fish and clear water, even a few fry!
 
Here is where I see your present situation. Your LFS has plenty of your money for right now. The first thing and the second must be dealt with together.
First you have not cycled your tank which means that you will be doing lots of large water changes to help your remaining fish survive. Second you have the white spot in the tank and need to deal with that problem. For a fish-in cycle, your only choice since you already have fish, there is a shortcut in my signature area for a fish-in cycle thread.
Likewise, for the ich infestation, there is a link called ich info that will take you to a comprehensive discussion of what ich is and how it can be treated successfully. Both of these are required reading in the conditions that you have managed to be led into.
You do not, repeat, do not want to add any fish to your tank until you get through a cycle. If your remaining fish and shrimp succumb, that will become a fishless cycle but we are hoping to get you through a fish-in cycle with most of your present stock. There is no reason to tear down your tank and start over, that would just throw away any progress that you have already made unwittingly by having some fish in a tank and them producing ammonia to start cycling the filter.
Much less pressing, but it will probably be helped by the fish-in water changes, is the high pH. High pH comes from many things but the plaster pyramid that you were sold is used by snail people to raise the pH and hardness of their water to make the snails healthier by having plenty of calcium in the water for their shells to form and grow. It does the same thing to the water when there are no snails present, as you found out.
 
Liquid water testing kits are the only way to do the tests...the other ones stink!
I started reading up one fish forums 2 weeks before I bought my first tank, so I was a little educated.
I did 20% water changes for a month w/fish and my tank finally cycled. :)
It was well worth the effort and I was glad I had educated myself on the topic of fish keeping.

As for your situation, you go blindly into fish keeping and the people that are suppose to help (douche bags at local fish store) steer you in the wrong direction. Shame on them. -_- But you didn't know any better. Neon tetras are NOT a good starter fish, btw. You should have gone with some guppies, they are more hardy fish.

Well good luck to your new fish keeping hobby and the best of luck! :)
Hopefully, someone can learn from this incident and avoid this scenario.
 
Unfortunately your LFS was full of crap. They often are. Not your fault, it seems like a logical place to go for advice, but now you've found this forum, and guess what, we're not trying to sell you anything, so we'll tell you what's REALLY going on, and not what will just get you to buy more stuff!! lol... we've got no other motivation except your fish's health in mind.

Basically, the things you did wrong (not really your fault, but still wrong):

1) Should not have bought the biorb, it's really designed for people looking at it and getting money from your wallet, and not for keeping fish healthy. A regular rectangular tank is good. Anything above 10 gallons is suitable for a small community. 10 gallon tanks aren't very large, you would be surprised when you see one, you can probably fit it anywhere. But don't worry, don't go throw it out and buy more tanks!! The biorb can be okay, you just need to keep in mind that you don't have a lot of surface area so you may want to provide extra aeration in the water by means of a bubbler or something?

2) Should have fishless cycled. Fish create ammonia as part of their respiration and as part of their waste (they pee it and their poo decomposes and creates ammonia too). The slightest trace of ammonia in the water is TOXIC to them. Almost all your problems, from your fish dying to having white spot to strange behavior, can probably be attributed to ammonia in the water. The process we call "cycling", which is building up bacteria in your filter, keeps your fish safe because the bacteria eat the ammonia. Phew! But then the bacteria produce nitrites, then another set of bacteria eat the nitrites, then they produce nitrates. Your fish don't especially ENJOY nitrates, but they are hundreds of times more tolerant to nitrates in the water than they are to ammonia or nitrites. Even 0.1 ppm of ammonia or nitrites is causing some sort of distress - we usually try to keep it below 0.25 ppm, that would be the really dangerous level. In a fully cycled tank, you will see 0 ammonia and 0 nitrites. The amount of nitrates that you see will depend on how often the water's being changed and the amount of biological load it has.

I hope that wasn't confusing!! I am trying to make it really easy to understand. That last paragraph is really important to understanding why your fish are sick. If you don't get it, please read it again, since it solves 99% of your problems. It's also something that the LFS should have told you about. Unfortunately, few do. It's part of the "nitrogen cycle" in nature, that's why we call it "cycling".

3) Should have purchased a LIQUID test kit, like the API Freshwater Master Test Kit. The most essential tests are for ammonia and nitrite, which are toxic. Less important tests are pH and nitrates (it's pretty likely that, whatever pH your tapwater is, from 6 to 9, is fine for most fish once they get acclimated to it, there are a few exceptions which I am still trying to learn about but for the most part pH isn't very important). Nitrates are the end result of the cycle so we'd like to know if they're there, but you don't really need to care about them nearly as much as ammonia and nitrite.

4) Don't worry about changing large amounts of water on your fish!! They won't mind, really!! Especially when you are in a fish-in cycle situation, what they are really opposed to is all the ammonia in their water, they are probably relishing the changes, even if they are acting strange. There are some reasons why this might not be the case of course, like if your water is very bad quality, or if you aren't using dechlorinator properly... but for the most part don't worry about disturbing them with the water changes. Fishes are generally hardier than we take them for, the only thing is they don't like certain chemicals, which we can easily get rid of if we know how.

If you get your tank cycled and read this forum, you'll be on your way to happy fish in no time :)

I am just a beginner but I've learned so much from this forum in the past few months that I thought I'd pass it on to you, hopefully it helped...

As for your fish-in cycling situation, I am not sure who said that you don't have enough fish for fish-in cycling... I highly disagree!! Even one fish in a small tank will make enough ammonia to start the cycle off. The bacteria grow very slowly at first so the fewer fish, the better, because you will have to do water changes less often. The first thing you need to do NOW is get yourself a liquid test kit that tests for ammonia and nitrites, and hopefully for pH and nitrates.
 
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