New Dog

[NinjaSmurf]

We picked up a stray back in August, he's some sort of Spaniel mix, I'm guessing there is some Papillon in there too, based on his tail and such. He seems to have been neutered, although for a few days we had a leg humping issue that made us wonder. Anyways, he's alright most of the time, but sometimes if I tell him to get off the furniture (he's allowed on one chair) or if I catch him doing something bad and tell him no he growls at me. Also, he loves kleenex from the trash can, and when you try to get it away from him he growls, and will try to hide it. He has bitten me. I've been googling the hell out of training sites and stuff, and have found he displays toy/food/bed, territorial, and reprimand aggression. He also bites at people not in our family ankles when they leave the house, or get up from chairs. He also barks at them for a long time, and growls. We have a fenced in yard, and he will lunge at the fence, growling and barking nonstop. If I tell him no, he will ignore me unless I go to him and get a hold of his collar. Then he behaves. This is compounded by the fact that our other dog, who is a smaller terrier type, is getting old and doesn't see as well as she used to, which tends to make her bark at stuff because she can't see so well, and that sets him off. He also freaks whenever my mom gets home, and he is basically her dog, follows her everywhere, barks and whines nonstop when she comes home. He's actually thrown himself at the glass door when she gets home, or the mail shows up. He also protects her, and while try to get between us when I go to her when she is in her bed. He also will not let anyone clip his nails, he drew blood on my moms hand when we tried (he has a very strong bite, no snapping, just chomping) and went for her face. He also still pees in places in the house, even though he could ask to go out at any time (someone is always home). He does go outside though, but we can't leave him out for long, as he barks at everyone that goes by.

I've been trying to train him right, but I've been running into problems with my family, my gram and uncle don't hear him barking so they don't say anything, my brother doesn't like the dog and gets extremely pissed and yells (and sometimes chases the dog into it's bed) when it growls at him, though the rest of the time he ignores him. Dog, as we call him, growls when he plays too, so my mom will yell at me for telling the dog no when it growls, even if I'm right that he's being aggressive and not playing. I don't know how to deal with an aggressive dog, and it doesn't help when everyone keeps doing things differently. Does anyone know what I should do?

 

[venom2112]

if you dont know what your doing why not get the pros in?? there must be a trainning class near you, there great for socializing your dog aswell, you meet people there with similar probs & exchange advice, if you dont do it right you will make matters worse,its his aggresion you want to sort out 1st, if he nips the wrong person you will be reported, never give up on training, if you go to the right place you will see just how easy it is! i would use food, keep titbits handy at all times, as for the fence barking issue, my mate lived next to 2 dobermans who used to run at there fence everyitme he went in the garden, he asked me what to do so i told him to speak to his neighbour and tell him what he had in mind, a water pistol!! every time the dogs flew at the fence he squirted them,untill they stopped, then walked away, took about 3 days but they stopped, now he sits in the garden & they will have a look but no barking or jumping up! but like i say if you dont know what your doing get the pros in

 

[venom2112]

didnt read your post thouroughly ( im getting sorted for work!) the kleenex issue, dont put them in the trash can! just flush them away or put them in a bag he cant reach, after a while with no kleenex as a reward he will give up as there not in the trash anymore

 

[seffieuk]

This sounds more like a dominance problem to me (no expert though, just years of exp. ). You need to seek out a really good trainer - they will train you to help your dog become happier and calmer.

If the barking is driving everyone nuts then you can get an anti barking collar from ebay (they are harmless) to help lesson everyones stress so that the training can begin - but to be honest I have used the water pistal as mentioned above and as long as you are consistent then it works in the space of a few days BUT everyone in the family needs to work together. Agree a plan and stick to it

Just a couple of things:

Ensure your dog gets two good walks a day (get a halti )
Ensure you feed your dog after everyone else has eaten
No titbits, unless earnt (reward him for doing the right thing)

all the best

 

[Canis-Equus]

Ok - sorry to disagree with you Seffie - this is NOT a dominance problem.

In fact 'dominance' just doesnt happen between people and dogs (it does between dogs and dogs though) - because dogs know we are not dogs. To further confuse the issue, the things we tend to label as 'dominance' wouldnt be dominance even if we were dogs..... for instance some people claim dogs barging through doors first is 'dominant' behaviour. This is rubbish - wild dogs or wild wolves who are dominant would never rush through a narrow gap first - they would send a less valuable pack member through as who knows whats on the other side. The alpha is not going to risk ending up dead if there happens to be a hungry bear on the other side!

Anyway, i digress.

Firstly, quit telling Dog off for growling. Growling is a GOOD thing. Growling tells you 'I am uncomfortable, i feel threatened, if you threaten me further i may have to use my teeth'.

This is similar to you telling me 'hey get out of my personal space you make me feel uncomfortable, i am worried you may hurt me'. If i you said that to me and i kept getting to close, carried on doing the threatening thing - you might feel the need to punch me.

If i shout at you for telling me to back off, does that make you feel any LESS uncomfortable? Nope.

He may be barking at people through the fence because he is fearful of them. If the other dog barks as well he may think 'well im scared, and she barks so thats the thing we do, bark at stuff to make it go away'.

Again if you shout at him to stop and punish him for doing this, hes not going to like the thing he is scared of any better.

If you are scared of spiders and whenever you see one and scream i thump you, will you suddenly like spiders? Nope.


Obviously, the growling and barking need to stop - to stop them you need to figure out WHY they happen - they are just a symptom of an underlying problem, and id guess in Dog's case, fear/anxiety coupled with 'ive learned previously that this works'.

For the barking at stuff outside. Firstly, for now dont have him outside on his own without a human there with him. Take him out on a lead.
When he sees a thing hed normally bark at, BEFORE he starts yelling, quickly give him a load of treats, offer him a game with a toy. The idea is that if you do this often enough he will see the scary person or other dog or whatever and go 'hey that means i get a treat'. If you do it well enough and are fun enough, he will come looking for a human to reward him - if hes doing THAT, then he isnt yelling like mad at someone through the fence.

You can make life a little easier for yourself if you put up a fence he cannot see through. That would help a lot.


For getting him to get off furniture when you ask - you need to be completely NON confrontational. If you know taking his collar or yelling 'get off' at him will make him growl, dont do that. All you will achieve is either, scaring him so bad he doesnt growl, which means in the long run he will eventually bite someone (perhaps not you, probably someone he is not scared of so much), or he will just bite you before he gets to the point hes so scared he stops growling. Either way you will make him worse, not better.

Instead, spend time training him and get him used to the concept that if he does what you ask, he gets a treat.

Bear in mind when you think hes learned something, if he DOESNT do it despite there clearly being a reward on offer, then he actually DOESNT know the thing. Dogs dont turn down rewards to be annoying, its because they dont understand (or beecause what they are doing is more rewarding, if thats the case then you need to make what you are offering better!).

If you want him off the sofa, get his attention in a nice way, dont make out you are tryingto get him off the sofa, lure him away with a treat or a toy instead.

Practice this a lot and when he has the hang of it, start using the command 'off', as he gets off the sofa (not before, during him actually getting off).

Gradually you will be able to use the command first, he gets off, you give treat. Once that happens then work your way from having a treat visible in your hand to having it hidden,. then in your pocket, then over the other side of the room, then in another room - this is so you can ask him to do something and he knows he will get 'paid' for doing it even if you arent waving the treat under his nose. So you dont have to go everywhere with a pocketfull of treats.


For getting things he has taken away from him.

1/ Tidy up and keep htings you really REALLY cant let him have put away where he cant get them.
2/ Practice with a thing he really isnt bothered about, give it to him. Offer him a swap with a thing he REALLY likes (my dogs love a piece of cheese!) - so piece of cheese in return for boring thing, wow great deal he will swap!

Gradually work your way up from boring thing for cheese to really great thing for other really great thing (if he has favourite toys, get two of each one!).

Again as with the getting off the furniture thing, gradually introduce a 'leave it' or 'drop it' command, at first saying the command as he allows you to take something in return for his reward, then working up to saying it before hand.

Then again, work your way up from having the treat visible in your hand, to having it in another room, so you can always ask him to leave and he knows you'll go get a treat, you dont have to be worrying about him swallowing something he cant have whilst you find a treat to wave under his nose.

Nail clipping - it hurts, and he may well remember that someones hurt him. You dont even have to draw blood for it to hurt - just go squeeze one of your fingernails really hard to see how much it hurts when we squeeze shut nail clippers over a dogs claw.
Theres a great video http/www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgEwiH8CeUE...ted&search= about clicker training a dog who rreally really didnt want his nails done. It is amazing and you can use clicker training to train pretty much anything you like! (just to show you how great this method is, THIS lady teaches these whole heelwork to music routines using clicker training - in this clip the dog is working for just ONE treat right at the end of the routine! http/www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIfjWu0ASF0 )


To do these things you will have to spend time with him training him. You may as well spend time training him to do other things in the same way (reward him as he does something, then introduce a command as he does it, then use the command first).

The more time you spend with him training him in this way, rather than yelling at him, telling him no etc, the more rewarding he will find you. He will want to spend time with you and listen to you (hey you are the fun person with the treats!).

He will become more confident that you wont upset him or threaten him (dont forget YOU may not realise what you are doing comes across as threatening!), and he will be much less bonded to your Mom.

Again - hes anxious, hes dependant on your mom so its not surprising he scent marks in the house, as he becomes more relaxed and confident, as he realises that other people in the house are as rewarding or MORE rewarding than Mom, he will not need to do this.
If he is actually toiletting in the house rather than scent marking, you need to make a point of rewardinghim specifically for going outside (which if you make sure hes never out there alone, will be easy as you are right there to treat him when he goes).

Hope that helps,

Em

 

[seffieuk]

Ok - sorry to disagree with you Seffie - this is NOT a dominance problem.

In fact 'dominance' just doesnt happen between people and dogs (it does between dogs and dogs though) - because dogs know we are not dogs.

Hi Canis, I must disagree with you about the above statement - I have seen many a dog who thought he was the pack leader (the pack being any member of the house). Whilst working with Dobermann Rescue (many years ago)I saw many a poor young male dog placed in rescue, all he needed was to be shown the rules by a loving, knowledgable owner. As I think you said, this poor boy sounds very confused about the rules, boudries etc.

all the best

 

[KathyM]

Hi Canis, I must disagree with you about the above statement - I have seen many a dog who thought he was the pack leader (the pack being any member of the house). Whilst working with Dobermann Rescue (many years ago)I saw many a poor young male dog placed in rescue, all he needed was to be shown the rules by a loving, knowledgable owner.

I think the "symptom" is the same, but the theory is what we humans interpret it as. The symptom is a pushy dog testing it's boundaries. We wrongly put the label "dominance" on this. Dog's don't see us as pack members, they're not daft enough to see humans as dogs. This word "dominance" often brings forth the old training methods such as us humans acting out dog behaviours trying to "put them in their place in the pack", which in my experience is a load of tosh *lol* and ineffective - in some cases dangerous.

We as humans need to be able to "lead" our dogs. We don't need to be "alpha" (not that a dog would see us as "top dog" anyhoo) or use pack ranking training methods (like you said seffieuk - it's about being shown the rules). We just need to make it clear what is acceptable and what isn't.

 

[Canis-Equus]

I have also met many many dogs who dominate the household.

Not one of those dogs though, either wanted that position, or, were happy with it - they were all anxious, insecure and stressed.

Given sensible boundaries and trained using non confrontational, positive reward based methods, all dogs like this can be sorted out.

Its not about dogs wanting to be dominant over us - they dont - but what they will do, is repeat the things they are rewarded for, or allowed to find rewarding.

If that happens to be, behaving in a horrible, pushy way - getting on furniture and defending it from people with growls and teeth, etc etc - then thats what they will do.

But dogs like this arent happy,they constantly have to defend this status they have been elevated too and life is horribly stressful and hard work for them.

So, 'dominating' dogs exist, but i dont like to use the word because humans mistake it for meaning that dogs want that status. They exist because we put them in that position.

Naturally dominant dogs viewed within a social group - never display the behaviours attributed to dogs dominating people..... never. Naturally dominant dogs with other dogs are quiet, calm, placid - they observe what goes on around them, they are not challenged for whats rightfully theres, other dogs defer to them without question.

Dogs attempting to be dominant over other dogs, now they display the same things that dogs labelled as dominant over humans do - working hard to get respect, using teeth and growls to defend things, constantly working to take other dogs things, bullying behaviour, etc etc.


There is a big problem in telling someone their dog is dominant - for a start nine times out of ten, its not, what you mean is 'its attempting to dominate you'.... different thing. (and again, thats not whats happening, as the dog just doesnt have the ability to plan ahead sufficiently to usurp a human being).

It sets up totally the wrong emotions for the relationship - it makes you feel like its you versus your dog. When you feel you are competeing with someone, you against them, you dont have the best relationship! You are opponents!

If you forget about dominance, dominating and domineering, and concentrate on a partnership, teacher and pupil, you have a much better relationship.

The reason so many people still believe in dominance is because at times it does work, but for the wrong reasons.

Setting out clear and consistent boundaries with anyone, dog, human, horse..... will ALWAYS have an effect - often it doesnt really matter what those rules are, its the consistency and the clarity of them that is the point.

The big issue with using the words dominance etc are that too many people get that me against you feeling, and are TOO harsh. They use dangerous methods such as alpha rolling (which has no use other than to frighten the living daylights out of a dog, and can result in a depressed dog or a dog that bites!), they can cause their dog to shut down mentally, resulting in robot dogs, stressed dogs who are fearful, fearful dogs who bite......

I say that it doesnt exist because if you watch the wild wolves, that this theory stems from (actually it stems from observed captive wolves, who do not behave in the same way as wild ones at all!) - they do not follow these rules that we seem to think they do.

The alpha male or female does not eat first, they do not pass through narrow gaps first, they do not constantly threaten the more subservient pack members.....they never forcefully pin down a subservient pack member and hold him or her there (although a subservient pack member may OFFER this behaviour, and they may do this to a non pack member shortly before actually killing it).

Furthermore, our dogs arent wolves - and we are not dogs, and our dogs are very aware of this. When we assume that because a dog speaks to us using canine language that they think WE are canines, we are being very stupid.

If you go to france and know no french your only option is to speak english. Does that mean you think french people are english?

Dogs can differentiate between cat, dog, horse, sheep, hare, rabbit, fox, cow...... why would they expect us to behave like dogs? They dont expect a hare to behave like a dog, or a cat......

Anyway enuff rambling!

Em

 

[AndreaC]

Hi Canis, I must disagree with you about the above statement - I have seen many a dog who thought he was the pack leader (the pack being any member of the house). Whilst working with Dobermann Rescue (many years ago)I saw many a poor young male dog placed in rescue, all he needed was to be shown the rules by a loving, knowledgable owner.

I think the "symptom" is the same, but the theory is what we humans interpret it as. The symptom is a pushy dog testing it's boundaries. We wrongly put the label "dominance" on this. Dog's don't see us as pack members, they're not daft enough to see humans as dogs. This word "dominance" often brings forth the old training methods such as us humans acting out dog behaviours trying to "put them in their place in the pack", which in my experience is a load of tosh *lol* and ineffective - in some cases dangerous.

We as humans need to be able to "lead" our dogs. We don't need to be "alpha" (not that a dog would see us as "top dog" anyhoo) or use pack ranking training methods (like you said seffieuk - it's about being shown the rules). We just need to make it clear what is acceptable and what isn't.

I also disagree and have seen dogs try to dominate the houshold. But I do agree with your tacticts on training. I think people who go down to the dogs level are going to acheive anyhting and correcting behaviour is the best way. Im a big one for reward training and have always used this method with huge success.

 

[KathyM]

An interesting article about the myth of "dominance" and pack ranking:

http/www.crosskeysbooks.com/newsdesk_inf...;newsdesk_id=78

I especially like this bit *lol*:

Before John Fisher’s sad and untimely death, he started to question Pack Rules and wrote, “if it’s how you want to live with your dog I have news that is going to disappoint a lot of people who have striven to reach this Alpha status – it all means diddly squat to your dog.â€￾

 

[seffieuk]

very interesting

 

[Canis-Equus]

Gah, Kathy beat me to it with that link - Barry Eaton has some very interesting things to say.

Another good un is Jean Donaldson's 'The Culture Clash' and all her other books too!

 

[NinjaSmurf]

I can't cover all the trash cans, my grandmother is disabled, and two of the trash cans are at her chair in the living room and in her bedroom, plus, I want the dog to know better than to go digging, not just have to keep them covered for the rest of his life. Plus, now it's harder to watch him, because he can open the baby gate we have to keep him in our room with us, which is why we've been finding pee spots downstairs, on the bathroom trash can, in the tub and in my grandma's bathroom.

I've been working with him on the basics, sit, stay and wait. I've also been working on speak and quiet, which he's been doing well on almost all of them (he won't work if he doesn't get something though). I even managed to get him to not bark as someone walked by the other day. He's very smart, there's no question to that, but it can be very hard to keep his attention sometimes, even with the treat. If my mom comes in the room I lose him for a little. I feel if I could get him away for a while and work with him alone I would be able to do better, but mom lets him get away with more (in fact, she lets this dog get away with more than any dog we've ever had, he's the first she's ever let on the furniture and it kind of pisses me off).

Today she actually yelled at me because I turned around in my chair really fast because I heard him grumbling, I just wanted to see if he was up to something and I got read the riot act. She thinks I'm too rough on him. Admittedly, when we first got him I was still dealing with the after-effects of my dad's dog (I have an old post around here somewhere). He was in far worse shape training wise, and I turned him around, but I was alone most of the day with that dog, this time my mom is home alot, and it's harder. Not to mention I don't have anyone working with me, my brother just doesn't care period, and mom likes to do things her own way, which is different from what I'm trying to teach him.

Thanks for the help though, it helps me see things without the fog of being directly in the mess.

 

[lljdma06]

Your dog sounds a lot like my sister's dog. It doesn't help your situation that the family isn't behind you 100%. Same situation with me. I move forward with Charlie, and then my sister's behavior undermines what we just accomplished. And then she turns around and complains about his behavior and asks me to fix it! Go figure. Still, I'm stubborn and he's better, though he still only has 1/4 of the manners my Cici has, but I had her from the get go and he's a rescue who was treated very poorly by his previous owner and has some baggage.

I can only say, just keep going and good luck. He sounds super smart. Would love to see a picture.

llj

 

[Miss Wiggle]

i think you need to sit down with the family and get everyone to agree on a strategy for how to treat the dogs behaviour, what you all agree is acceptable and what isn't and what to use as rewards and punishments. if one person lets him get away with something and the other doesn't he's getting mixed messages and is bound to be confused.