New Aquarium (Fish-In Cycling...), Couple Qs

[Doc7]

Hello all...I was impressed by my sibling's aquarium and rushed out and got a set-up of my own. That was on Saturday. I got a "Starter kit" at PetSmart, which is described at this link (I didn't include the stuff i'm not using as I have my own thermometer to use and didn't use the starter chemicals / foods / etc)

http/www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3804446#prodTab1
# Size 20 Glass Aquarium
# Top Fin Power Filter 20 with Cartridge
# 24" Fluorescent Hood with bulb
# Adjustable 100 Watt Heater

After setting it up and waiting a couple of days, I did add 3 Zebra Danio after reading about cycling (but before stumbling upon fishless cycle information). It has been about 5 days. Doing 10-25% changeouts every other day and ammonia has stayed below 0.25 PPM (API master test kit), no nitrites yet, pH is hard for me to tell but I am fairly sure that it's around 8.1 which seems awfully high (same as coming out of the tap). I know it will be important for me to keep the ammonia low with this pH (and of course especially with 3 live pets in there!)


The filter ( http/www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2752295 ) has a 100 GPH turnover rate according to their site so volume seems reasonable from what I have read in the "sticky/pin" threads here and elsewhere. It takes 1 cartridge which is a mesh around activated carbon. I worry that 1 cartridge means I will unintentionally begin a new cycle each time I change the filter. Should I immediately upgrade to a 2-cartridge type filter, and will PetSmart carry the appropriate kinds (in other words, don't want to waste a trip there...no reasonably near LFS that I have found via google yet)? That way I can change out one cartridge at a time. Otherwise, can I just rinse these cartridges (carbon and all) in "used" water during water changeouts when I note that water is flowing over rather than through the cartridge, and keep this unit and media the same as they are now?

My water temp is virtually exactly 80 degrees each time I test it; already posted the chemical readouts above. I also have a 6" air stone in there.

I got the Top Fin gravel filter but it seemed to a) take water out of my tank too fast for me to hit all the gravel spots, at least in my first 2 tries, and b) have poor suction for picking up what little debris there was (i'm careful about food and net out leftovers). I think the next time I will take off the vacuumy-type end part and just use the tube itself as a siphon; the narrower line, with same flow rate, should provide a greater suction but this will simultaneously make it even harder to get the whole gravel surface so ANY tips here are greatly appreciated!

Here is a picture; does this seem "planted" (plastic) enough for a 20 gallon tank? It's too early for me to decide where I'm going with it after I cycle but I think I would like to give the danio 3 more to have a school, wait a while for chemistry to settle again, add another SMALL fish which schools in numbers of 5-6 in two groups of three (allowing chemistry to settle again between the groups), and then one "Centerpiece" fish (still SMALL; i don't like large fish in tanks for some reason, creeps me out. Large to me is 3", which might even be too large for the community I have described here)

I am currently trying to feed with Omega One flakes but they seem to be very skittish of the size or just plain don't LIKE the flakes. They love freeze dried bloodworms but this doesn't seem like it should be a staple (2 x / day) food...

thanks for any help!
Thanks for advice!

 

[Doc7]

Did a partial W/C, added background, and re-arranged the plants. The 3 zebra nearly immediately all found favorite new places to swim in circles around...can't wait till I can put them in a shoal.

 

[Doc7]

I don't mean to bump my own thread but are my questions missing the mark for whatever reason? I am new here so if the format is not correct please let me know. Unsure if the "fish in cycling" is keeping people out or if my gravel vac / filter / food / plant-level questions are written poorly.

Thank you

 

[fluttermoth]

Hi Doc7 (Sylv?! ), lets see if I can answer your questions

Yes, you will be losing an awful lot of bacteria if you change the cartridges; you can use the carbon as a biological filter just by rinsing it, or you can change it. I don't have a P@H near me, so I have no idea what they stock, but any kind of sponge you can cut to fit would do the job.

I don't have experience with that kind of gravel cleaner but remember that big water changes won't do your fish any harm; in fact as you're doing a fish-in cycle, they'll be beneficial.

You could do with turning your heater down a few degrees, to about 74F or even a bit lower; the danios would prefer a lower temp, but it does depend on what else you're going to have.

I think your tank would be improved if you had some kind of background on it; even a plain piece of dark coloured paper or card would do, it would make your fish feel more secure. Maybe some kind of taller plant that would trail along the surface too if you can find one, or something you could float or hang down.

Sometimes fish can be funny about foods; you could try a different brand of flake or a variety of freeze dried/frozen doods; you are right, freeze dried bloodworm isn't much good as a staple diet. Don't forget though, that 3 danios aren'r going to need very much food at all, so don't worry if it looks like they're not eating much; it's extremely rare for fish to actually starve themselves to death; that kind of behaviour really occurs only in some kinds of wild caught marine fish.

As for other fish; yes, definitely get more zebra danios; maybe some rasboras would be nice or a small tetra like Embers. For your 'centrepiece' fish, some dwarf, honey or sparkling gourami (although they can be delicate) or dwarf cichlids would go very nicely; they're nearly all under 3".

 

[Doc7]

Thanks. About adding other fish, of course that's for after cycling.

My ammonia are still measuring below .25 ppm (I am changing out approx 20% of the water every other day) and 0 nitrites, so I think it is only because of the fact they're only in a "School" of 3, but my two bigger danios will not stop chasing each other around. I'm not sure if it's just one doing the chasing but nearly every single time I look at the tank (which is actually above my computer monitor so this is hundreds of times per hour) one fish is chasing the other. He (or they, if it's not the same one) chase the smaller one when he tries to eat as well. It's really starting to bother me that I may have a fish in there who is making life incredibly stressful for the other 2 fish and wonder what, if anything, I can do about this. Yesterday when I re-arranged the tank during a cleaning they all found favorite spots and were swimming around their chosen plants/areas happily for hours and today it is aggravating to watch this aggression.

If I take out the larger danio that is always doing the chasing (assuming it's always the same one and they aren't flip-flopping dominance), leaving 2 in this tank, will the large one just torture the small one giving me the same situation I am in now?


Also here is my tank now, added a background...you can see in the center-foreground the chasing I am seeing as well:

 

[Ceramicbull]

If there is space in the filter box, you can drop some bio material from whatever filter into the box (the little rock-like things). It'll still do the same job, although some bacteria will still adhere to the pad, there will always be a good seeding amount on the biomaterial.

Regarding the filter pads, other than the carbon aging (which is not that important, really), there is no reason they have to be replaced entirely at all. I suggest you just shake the thing out in tank water every so often. You will still preserve the mechanical filtration, but you will lose much fewer bacteria.

If you want to lower the pH a bit (it's not going to do wonders) add some real driftwood. It will yellow your water a bit naturally, by releasing mild acids called tannins. They will not harm the fish at all, and should lower your pH by just a little bit.

As for "centerpiece" fish what sort of thing are you looking for? Gouramis, as mentioned, are nice. I'm partial to the Pearl gourami, they are very striking looking but they do get up to 5". Dwarves look great, but apparently are fairly prone to sickness. If you don't mind a bottom dweller you won't see all the time for a centerpiece, you could try a Clown Pleco or any number of other small, striking Loricarid Catfish (any Panaque pleco will NEED real wood in the tank as they actually eat it). Perhaps a female betta? A lone Male Swordtail? A Dwarf Cichlid like a Bolivian Ram or Kribensis?

As far as shoals go, Harlequin Rasboras are a great choice, as would be Corys, Otos, hatchets, guppies or platys. (careful with the genders of the latter two, lest you get more fish than you bargained for.) One thing I would recommend is that you try to vary the strata that all of these fish frequent, so one area of the tank doesn't get too crowded. For example, Danios will probably stay around the middle, so if you were to say get a Betta or Gourami (top) and some Corys or Otos(bottom) it would look better and have less chance of conflict than if you mass a whole bunch of fish in the middle.

 

[fluttermoth]

If I take out the larger danio that is always doing the chasing (assuming it's always the same one and they aren't flip-flopping dominance), leaving 2 in this tank, will the large one just torture the small one giving me the same situation I am in now?

Yes, I'm afraid it will; the only solution is to get a larger shoal, I'm afraid. However, danios are pretty tough fish and shouldn't actually hurt each other.

 

[hillmar77]

I dont think your larger is doing any harm to the other ones. Mine goes beserk and play tag 24/7 with each other always chasing and being chased. I've never looked into my tank and not see any chasing activity going on in my daino tanks. And thats been going on for a few months now.

 

[BigJim]

I apologize for jumping in one another member's topic but I am unable to create my own right now (new member maybe?) and I have a similar problem with an aggressive zebra danio. Maybe my post will help with her problem as well. I purchased five danios this morning to cycle a tank I set up three days ago. I believe I even purchased the same 20 gallon starter kit as the person who started this topic. The ammonia level is in the safe range, the PH is 6.5 and there are no nitrates or nitrites yet.

I have three zebra danios (one male and two female) and two leopard danios (one male and one female). I'm pretty sure about the sex of the fish but it is hard to be positive. The largest female zebra schools with the other fish when the room is dimly lit and she also behaves pretty well under ambient lighting. If I turn on the fluorescent light, she patrols the top of the tank and attacks any fish that swims more than a third of the way up from the bottom. She is nipping fins and has slightly damaged the tail fin of two of the other fish already. I have the light off for now but I have live plants that will need the light. Has anyone seen this before? Does anyone have any ideas besides getting rid of the fish? Would adding a couple more danios help? I want to add some tetras down the road and maybe a swordtail, so I can't put too many more danios in the tank. Any help is greatly appreciated.

 

[fluttermoth]

Hi BigJim, welcome to the forum!

I'm afraid the problems both you and Doc7 are having a purely down to having shoaling fish in too small groups. These fish live in shoals of hundreds, or even thousands, in the wild where this kind of behaviour is spread out over many fish so the weaker ones can always get away and the bully spends its time chasing lots of different fish.

The best thing you could do would be swap one lot of danios for more of the other species (ie; get rid of the Leopards and get 3 more zebras, or vice versa)

Also, BigJim; there is no 'safe level' of ammonia; if you are reading any ammonia at all you should be doing immediate, large water changes.

There is plenty of information on this site about fish-in cycling; we're all more than happy to advise you if you need it. Best of luck

 

[frida]

Hi BigJim, welcome to the forum!

I'm afraid the problems both you and Doc7 are having a purely down to having shoaling fish in too small groups. These fish live in shoals of hundreds, or even thousands, in the wild where this kind of behaviour is spread out over many fish so the weaker ones can always get away and the bully spends its time chasing lots of different fish.

The best thing you could do would be swap one lot of danios for more of the other species (ie; get rid of the Leopards and get 3 more zebras, or vice versa)

Also, BigJim; there is no 'safe level' of ammonia; if you are reading any ammonia at all you should be doing immediate, large water changes.

There is plenty of information on this site about fish-in cycling; we're all more than happy to advise you if you need it. Best of luck

I agree, danios need to be in bigger groups!! I think both zebras and leopards are acutally the same species (Danio rerio - although previously they were thought to be separate and the leopards were called Danio frankei). Leopards are just spotted colour morphs of zebra danios caused by a mutation in its pigmentation. So I'm not sure if it's really necessary to get rid of your leopards but just get more of either.

EDIT: of course, as waterdrop mentions, only add once the filter is cycled!!!

 

[waterdrop]

Yes, agree with fluttermoth. The danios are used to much larger groups and ultimately will have much more comfortble behavior patterns once you get up at 6 fish or greater but all fish changes are usually better left to -after- the cycling of the filter is completed, which can be about a month or greater in a fish-in cycling situation (unless one has the rare LFS that will take back a group of fish to hold or for store credit and one has made the decision to switch species or fishless cycle.)

In a Fish-In Cycling situation, all focus is on maintaining that narrow band between zero ppm and 0.25ppm for both ammonia and nitrite(NO2) to minimize the gill and nerve damage and hopefully keep the fish alive until the filter can begin creating a proper fish environment. You have to be a bit of a detective with your test kits. You want to find the pattern of percentage and frequency of water changes (these are actually gravel-clean-water-changes with good technique) such that neither of these fish poisons goes above that 0.25ppm level before you can be home again to change water - it can be quite challanging sometimes depending on the fish and the tank.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[BigJim]

Thanks! She is actually acting fine today so maybe she was just not adapting well to the new environment. My ammonia is below 0.25 ppm and I realize that it should be 0 once the cycle is complete. I hope I can pull this off without losing any of the fish. I read in a couple places that the zebras and leopards would school together since they are so closely related and they appear to be doing so for now. I was hoping to have 5 danios, 5 tetras (not sure which variety yet) and either a swordtail or platy. With a 20 gallon tank that will put me at my fish limit.

 

[frida]

Thanks! She is actually acting fine today so maybe she was just not adapting well to the new environment. My ammonia is below 0.25 ppm and I realize that it should be 0 once the cycle is complete. I hope I can pull this off without losing any of the fish. I read in a couple places that the zebras and leopards would school together since they are so closely related and they appear to be doing so for now. I was hoping to have 5 danios, 5 tetras (not sure which variety yet) and either a swordtail or platy. With a 20 gallon tank that will put me at my fish limit.

Someone more experienced might correct me but as far as I remember, both swordtails and platys grow quite big so need fairly large tanks.
If you're looking for something to add, how about 5 pygmy corydoras? Or maybe a centre piece fish like a honey gourami or dwarf gourami?
Also, the danios and tetras might be happier in bigger groups (i.e. 8+)

 

[waterdrop]

Yes, healthy platies and swords can get up in the 3 inch range or even four inches in some ideal situations (they vary individually too, just like any animal.) Good suggestions from Frida. WD