New And I Did It All Wrong...

[OhMyFish]

I haven’t posted much because DH took “control” telling me not to add any more pH buffer. He was upset that the java fern was looking sick (I thought I’d rather kill the java fern than the fish but not he!).

So…14 hours after adding the last of the pH buffer, the pH was still under 6—a pale to golden yellow color.

The next day (this past Monday) at mid-morning, the pH was still under 6 and the tank was extremely cloudy. I only had time to do a 10% water change.

On Tuesday, the ph was still under 6 and the tank was extremely cloudy. DH told me not to do anything.

On Wednesday, the pH was definitely 4-4.5 because it was very pale yellow. I did a 60% water change which raised the pH level to 6. The tank was still cloudy but not as much as before. I can see there are definitely little particles floating around. DH came home with a bubbler but no additional filter.

Yesterday at 8 AM, the ph was definitely under 4.5 with the ammonia, nitrites & nitrates all 0. The tap water was 7.4 pH, the water after using the water conditioner was still 7.4. The water was very cloudy. I did a 60% water change (still cloudy but not so bad) and removed the larger plastic ornament and some gravel. I stirred around a bit in the gravel to see if there was anything “strange” in it—nothing I could find. After an hour, the pH in the tank was 6.4. The non-conditioned water the large ornament was sitting in had a pH of 7.4. The non-conditioner water the gravel was sitting in (separate from the ornament) was 7.4. (These experiments were directed by DH.). 2 hours after the water change, the tank’s ph was about 6.3. The smaller ornament I had removed and put in non-conditioned water was 7.4. Last night, about 9:30 AM, all fish are swimming about as I turn off the light. The water is cloudy but I’m too exhausted (a very long, tense day) to test the pH. The tank and fish looked the same as they did the night before.

At 8:30 AM this morning, I turn the light on the tank to find the last of the blood-fin tetras dead. The pH was under 6—pale yellow or probably 4.5. The water is cloudy. I did a 60% water change and removed the java fern which is now sitting in non-conditioned water pending another experiment. The pH immediately after the water change is about 6.3.

Ok…DH says let the fish die and start over. I can’t for I feel that fish are not something just to discard—they are live “animals,” if you will, and are “pets.” I wish to teach my son to care for all living things.

I’m going to try to get out to PetCo today. If they have an in-tank filter, I’m buying it for surely it must help, right? I'll look myself for the oxyshells (haven't found them yet). If not, I'll get the coral. Should I get the tablets that raise the pH? I’ll take the fish and some water to them for testing.

If anyone can offer help, please do. I know something must be wrong but I can’t figure it out. Thanks so much!

 

[Amunet]

It sounds like it's the exact problem we have with our tap water.
I also left some tap water out for 24hrs, and the pH didn't change, but as soon as it hits the tank, it will go below 6 if I don't do anything to keep it up.

I would definitely try to get some coral or something that will help raise the pH up slowly.
I've never used tablets or anything so... I'd treat those the same as the liquid stuff..... don't hold your breath that it will work.

 

[OhMyFish]

I just got back from PetCo. The dead bloodfin looked go so no disease there. The only "bad" reading was the pH which he was 5, if not below (the dipstick only went to 5). The guy at PetCo said the only thing that had a chance of working was using baking soda but he encouraged using just a pinch (less than 1/8 tsp.) at first, testing every hour. I did purchase an in-tank filter but may delay using it...it was very expensive and I need to try to find one a bit less. The guy at PetCo had never heard of oxyshells.

 

[waterdrop]

Yeah, I live one state above amunet and I have the same problem as both of you, my water comes out of the tap with almost zero carbonate hardness, making it of course ready to drop pH very easily.

Oh my, OhMyFish, sometimes beginners have it easy and sometimes everything seems to go wrong! Ultimately, the hobby is not nearly as hard as this beginning is seeming for you.

I hate to recommend yet another item to buy, but if money is not a problem I would say to try and get a good KH test (its just a small bottle and usually a little test tube to hold the water for the test, like other liquid tests.) If nothing else, it will be an excellent learning situation to be seeing your pH in relation to your KH (carbonate hardness, aka "temporary" hardness). Tetratest make an excellent little test and that is what I use, but API also has a KH/GH kit which I'm sure is fine and of course Salifert would be fine. What a KH test will do is give you a way to measure the buffering of your water and be more able to anticipate what any of these things you do (eg. pH powders, Oxyshells, crushed coral or baking soda) in terms of buffer. When KH is low, pH is ready to crash, when KH is high, pH will hold steady.

Also, your DH could have a lot of fun learning about buffers, general hardness, carbonate hardness and all the scales used to describe these things. Its fun chemistry! You can read lots of it on wikipedia of course.

If you want to see some of my previous discussions of KH and pH, you can do an advanced search on KH with my ID, waterdrop, in the username area and the "exact" box checked. One of the threads is my one over in the scientific section, but be forewarned that that one gets a bit involved, especially because monkeybiz is a swimming pool chemist!!

By the way, I'm not fully familiar with the Oxyshell product (and I should probably bow to Laurafrog, who may know that its good) but it looks suspiciously like one of those feeding blocks people use for vacation and which often don't work well. I know its not a feeding block, but I'd be suspicious that its just another form of pH powder in a bottle (except that its stuck together in a block!).. anyway, I think that crushed coral is much more the accepted standard for use in raising pH with fish in the tank -- at least, many experienced TFF members seemed to feel that way from my fairly extensive searches over the last year more or less. Crushed coral is just good at behaving in a very slow way and that is what you want in a long-term pH control situation I think.

Anyway, good luck. Until you add KH knowledge to the equation, I would say that very low carbonate hardness from your tap is a very likely candidate for your problem, more so than the possibility that your tank decoration was leaching acid, but I suppose that was also a possibility.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[OhMyFish]

Thank you for replying, waterdrop. If I obtain a test for water hardness...what will I do if I find the water is too hard? too soft? or just right? I think I need to know the next step before I can spend more money. I really don't understand why the tap water drops pH after it sits in the tank a while. Can someone explain that in "dummy" terms?

I've been adding about 1/16 tsp. every hour to 2 hours, testing the pH before I add more. The pH was steadily going down but now seems to have leveled off at about 5. Way too low but I'll continue the pattern and hope for the best. I think I'll have a chance to add 1 more 1/16 tsp. before I go to bed. So far, I've added a total of 3/8 tsp. The guy at PetCo said to be very sure to go slow so I'm going slow.

The water has become more cloudy. I guess this is from the baking soda? I have not put the in-tank filter in the tank. It really seems very large and will take up a lot of room in the tank. I think I'll return it and get one that hangs on the back...surely, I can figure out a way to move the tank out more from the wall...surely, I can....I think I can...I think I can...

Well, we'll see what the morning brings.

 

[SharonCC]

How about buying a Canister filter...Place beside the tank, with a smallish table over it...cover with decorative cloth. I really think you need to get a filter going ASAP. When a tank has toxins present, the PH can bounce around. If you could get the filter going, and the cycle completed, the PH may sort itself out!

 

[OhMyFish]

I searched on-line for a canister filter and I could find none within my price range. I didn't realize it sat on the floor. I have no floor space (or any space) on either side of the tank. The tank sits against a wall between the door to the bathroom and the door to the laundry room. I think there's only 1 1/2 inches on either side of the tank before the door openings.

 

[waterdrop]

I think she was talking about -another- filter. There would be no point in talking about any of these topics if she didn't have a filter running. Right?

 

[OhMyFish]

I know the thread's long to read but I do have a filter--an undergravel filter which DH insists is sufficient because "that's all I had as a kid!"

 

[waterdrop]

I'm one of those guys who's old enough to have had undergravel filters as a kid and worked with them quite a bit (had internals and hang-on-backs during those same years.) Now that I've experienced modern external cannister filters I'm amazed at how much better they are. External cannisters are just light-years easier to work with.

In fact, the feeling I've come to now can be illustrated in the following analogy: A beginning musician will have quite a difficult time learning how to make nice-sounding notes come out of, say, a wind instrument. The beginner, moving between different qualitiy levels of the same instrument might find it easier to make a good sound on an expensive instrument, but near impossible on a cheap instrument. In contrast, a professional musician, who can elicit a beautiful sound from a good instrument, will be able to pick up a terrible instrument and still draw forth a reasonable sound.

Likewise, the serious fishkeeping hobbyist, like many of the enthusiasts here with sometimes 20 years of trial and error and learning, truly has the skill to make almost any filtration system work, and will often argue that they are all fine and it doesn't matter which you have. But the beginner, in truth, lacks some of the skills that the experienced fishkeeper would use to stay out of trouble.

Its not that you can't learn the peculiar details of how to keep an undergravel maintained, or what kind of time-frame it takes to get cycled.. you can. Its just that its a little arcane I think and the skills are a little off the beaten path and take some digging (no pun intended) to find.. like periodically sucking the muck from below the grids.. or keeping a tall enough column of gravel to guarantee that a "path of least resistance won't form," or understanding that if you miss cleanings then you may stir up a ton of muck and ammonia that will threaten your fish.. stuff like that!

In the end (and I certainly hope I'm not just falling prey to the latest "fad") I just end up agreeing with those that feel that the undergravel filter is a method that is just a little too tricky for the beginner. (Don't misunderstand me, the hardware of the undergravel is simplicity itself, its the longer term skills of understanding its water chemistry maintenance quirks that's difficult.) For the very experienced aquarist, its another tool in their back pocket but for the beginner its yet another off-track complication that messes things up in my opinion.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[SharonCC]

I see that now ...OK...

 

[OhMyFish]

Oh my...I'm swimming in more circles than my remaining fish...actually, the fish aren't very active.

In spite of adding approx. a total of 1 tsp baking powder, the pH reading is the same--probably about 5. The water is slightly cloudy and the temperature has gone up from a steady 78°F to 80°F. Why, I don't know. I adjusted the heater a bit so hopefully, it'll return to the regular temp. I tested for ammonia...it's now at .25 (ugh...I think this means the cycle is beginning again!!!!!) and the nitrites are 0. I don't think I need to test for nitrates now.

So...back to the water changes, I know. I'm going to try to change only 30% water and see if that helps. I have time to do that if I hurry. I don't want any more fish to die...

 

[alysonpeaches]

Are internal filters difficult to get in the US? If so, why?

They are fairly commonplace here and not that expensive. I use them in all my tanks. If you still want one, look on EBAY there are some sellers from China and Hong Kong that sell them internationally. You may also find some British ones available to you. BUT please check the voltage, you have a different system dont you? A lot of people recommend Eheim aquaball (thats German) and Ive heard they are very good. I use Fluval 3+ but have had experience of a Clear Jet and found it OK. I find them very easy to clean and maintain. You could also try a sponge filter with an airline or a simple box filter with an airline. These are cheap.

 

[Amunet]

I hope you just mis-typed and meant baking soda instead of baking powder?

Anywho... you may need to add more baking soda.

When our pH crashed a while ago, it took about 1-2 tablespoons to get the pH back up to what it was. Not saying it will take your tank that much, but keep using it and you'll see the pH come up.

 

[OldMan47]

If your water is as low in KH as WD says his is, get some crushed coral. It is often sold as salt water tank sand at the LFS and is fairly cheap. You can put some on top of your filter media, the gravel being used by the undergravel filter, and it will slowly dissolve and raise both the pH and the KH. What we are talking about here is a thin layer of salt water tank substrate on top of what you already have. I grew up using undergravel filters and so forth and had no problems but where I grew up the water was not as soft as you are dealing with. Where I grew up the water came from wells bored in what is called "the canadian shield" which is a large deposit of granite. Granite is far from an inert material so it kept the water somewhat hard and pH above 7 at all times. I knew nothing then about water chemistry because I was blessed with good chemistry out of my tap. It is not the case for you and is not the case for me where I live now.