Justfrozen's Fishless Cycle Log

[waterdrop]

Sounds like it might be. Good luck. WD

 

[LilyRose Tank]

Good luck babe,, I've been reading your thread and I must admit I think madness would have long ago set in if it were me. I too mucked up and my ammonia isnt being processed ( but I'm not sure if I have N=bacs sorting out the nitrites as my levels are 0ppm, although the ammonia isnt being shifted very quickly.
Sounding good now, hope all goes well for you

 

[JustFrozen]

Thanks for the support you two, and to everyone else who has some hope for me.

Same results again for the past week. I haven't been as consistent, but I'm still at it the majority of the time.

Recently I've noticed a significant difference in the amount of water my filter is pumping. What used to be a steady, singular waterfall is now two minor streams along each side of the exit. Could that be why I'm struggling to get this final phase going?

I'm planning on cleaning it this weekend. Is it okay to just do it in the tank, or do i want to take tank water out in a bucket and then clean it in there?

 

[waterdrop]

I hope it wasn't -me- that somehow gave you the idea to -never- do nitrate(NO3) tests as I'm looking now and realizing how few we've ever seen. They become at least somewhat useful in the latter stages even though you don't want to put too much trust in them. Of course, its a much easier decision to do a big gravel-clean-water-change if we find high nitrates and greatly lowered pH and you never seem to have lowered pH (which must mean you have tons of buffer.)

My own feeling would be to worry now that the filter is clogging up and the bacteria may not be receiving a good flow of ammonia and fresh oxygenated water. I'd probably go for a full down to the substrate water change and very gentle squeeze out of the media in the water that's going out and make sure the incoming water is well conditioned (but not more than 2x dosing of the conditioner) ...but I'd love to have OM47 comment also. Your graph certainly makes it look like we should finally be seeing it ready to end.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[JustFrozen]

I haven't updated the spreadsheet graph in ages. I'll try to get around to that soon.

As for the lack of testing other than ammonia, I only have myself to blame for that. I'll try to do a full round of testing soon and try to be more regular with testing the other levels

I think it's pretty fair to say that my lack of attentiveness had led to one of the longest cycles, and although I feel it's easy to slip in that mode because things seem to hang forever, it leads to its own sort of behavioral cycle that I hope people will be wary of when it starts to drag on for them. I should have been more reactive to longer periods on non-progression rather than slipping more into idle-mode. I guess I lost hope along the way

I'll still try to course correct this thing though. Although my effort could have been higher, I didn't go through months of it for nothin

 

[waterdrop]

OK, I've looked at it again this morning and I stand by my recommendation in my last post. Also, I realize I based my assumption that pH is ok on the spreadsheet graph having pH just go on out to the right and stay high but now I realize its not clear there were tests and data to support that. Has pH stayed high? If you do not test pH at least twice a week or so then it can surprise you at any point and drop down to 6.2 or lower leaving you with the bacteria shocked into no activity. If that's the case then you could just keep adding ammonia forever and never get anywhere. You are definately way overdue for a "reset."

~~waterdrop~~

 

[JustFrozen]

tested pH today: 6.0

wow, i had no idea it was crashing that bad, considering i had another huge water change only 2 weeks ago. i performed a 90% water change today, and i cleaned the filter while i was add it. i feel horrible for a lot of reasons.

i obviously wasnt taking of it. there was tons of gunk, i think a lot of cat hair is getting in my tank =/

i feel like i don't know what i'm doing. even though i'm using plenty of conditioner, i feel like i'm wiping everything out with chlorine. even though i remember reading that a lot of the gunk on the filter is the bacteria, i scrubbed a lot of it off the bottom so the water can at least get through properly. i also siphoned most of it off the bottom of my tank (i had put the water back in my tank). there's still a bunch of in it there and it looks horrible. i think i should vacuum up the rest of it. i also removed the carbon media that came with my filter which allowed me to keep the biological media much more submerged and in the current.

the order of this process went:

0. Turned off filter and heater
1. Removed water
2. Cleaned filter in tank water
3. Put filter water bank in tank
4. Added conditioner for the whole rest of the amount I was going to add x2
5. Added water
6. Siphoned/replaced about 5 gallons (of 25) out of the tank to clean the gunk on the bottom
7. Cleaned the top interior/exterior of the tank with tank water
8. Turned filter and heater back on

I feel embarrassed because I know I'm messing up. I'm posting all this info about what I did so I can learn what I did wrong. Hopefully i didnt just screw up the whole cycle.



Well.... at least the water flow is back to normal...

 

[waterdrop]

Don't know why you are giving yourself such a hard time! Looks to me like you did a good job. Overall a water change and filter clean was obviously called for. Let's go over the details.

Water removal and gravel cleaning don't need to be two separate steps: just put a catchbucket at the other end of your gravel siphon hose and capture the dirty tank water you are siphoning out as you deep-clean the gravel. That will be the water (doesn't matter that its dirty!) that you will clean the filter media in. Its easier to just dose conditioner directly to the tank when doing water changes and make the dosing amount 2x what it should be for the tank volume (which of course will be a little less than what they said when you bought it but none of this matters much with small tanks.)

I probably would not have tossed out the carbon layer during fishless cycling but I don't think this is likely to mess you up too much if you still had a pretty good volume of other biomedia in the filter.

OK, about the cleaning: Remember, the focal point of our work is just keeping conditions right so that the bacteria (which are like a brown stain tightly bound to the sponge or ceramic material of the different types of media in the filter) will continue to have a nice flow of fresh water that has oxygen, ammonia, calcium and iron in it. When the filter gets clogged that means some of the bacteria aren't getting as nice a flow. If there is no water change in forever that could mean the calcium or iron might get depleted (that's not a problem for a shorter fishless cycle but could become a problem for a longer one, hence another of the positive things about a "kickstart" water change during a fishless cycle.)

OK, another thing, and you can plan to do this next time, no problem that you did less this time, is that "percentage" water changes (like your 5G out of 25G) have no "meaning" during fishless cycling. A kickstart water gravel-clean-water-change during fishless should just be right on down to the substrate taking as much water out as possible. This way you get the maximum re-boost of your calcium, iron, pH, oxygen etc. from the water change. "Percentage" or "Partial" water changes are only necessary for -fish- to lessen some of the potential shock to them and even that is not really needed if you've been water changing on a regular basis so that your tank water params are similar to your tap params.

Now when you clean (gently squeeze sponge, swish ceramic rings, carbon, etc.) the media in the tank water you've successfully protected your bacteria (you keep it wet with tank water the whole time but its not necessary that it be completely submerged the whole time. Short movements through the air will actually give the bacteria a nice dose of oxygen, but just don't let it dry out be inadvertant inattention. The -other- parts, the filter box etc. can be cleaned right under the tap if that's easier, the leftover droplets of tap water will not contain enough chlorine to cause any problem. I just spent the whole morning doing this stuff and let me tell you I cleaned a lot of tank objects under tap water!

If your water change did not achieve a pH of about 8.0 to 8.4 then I'd dose a teaspoon of kitchen baking soda in there to help make it higher. What did the water change get you? Did you remember to plug your heater back in and get your temp back up to 29C/84F?

~~waterdrop~~

 

[JustFrozen]

Don't know why you are giving yourself such a hard time! Looks to me like you did a good job.

Because it's been 3 months now, my tank is a dirty mess, and I was really confused by that whole process

Water removal and gravel cleaning don't need to be two separate steps: just put a catchbucket at the other end of your gravel siphon hose and capture the dirty tank water you are siphoning out as you deep-clean the gravel. That will be the water (doesn't matter that its dirty!) that you will clean the filter media in. Its easier to just dose conditioner directly to the tank when doing water changes and make the dosing amount 2x what it should be for the tank volume (which of course will be a little less than what they said when you bought it but none of this matters much with small tanks.)

Cool, because that nicely sums up exactly how it went, except I don't have gravel, I have sand. After all the time of worrying sand would be a lot harder to clean, I actually find it a lot easier. The dirt can't get down into crevices, and using the technique described by others in this forum, it's easy to lift it off the surface and suck it up without grabbing the sand with it. I did use the water that got siphoned into the bucket to clean the filter media though. I just wasn't sure if I had to put that water back into the tank or not ( I quickly googled it though, and was told to put it back in)

I probably would not have tossed out the carbon layer during fishless cycling but I don't think this is likely to mess you up too much if you still had a pretty good volume of other biomedia in the filter.

I wouldn't have, except it was clearly blocking the flow (it didn't seem to have the chunkier bits of carbon like my other carbon media) and it used to be in the middle of the stack which caused the ceramic media to stick high out of the way of most of the stream, part of it probably even above the water line. those two factors influenced my desicion to just toss it in this case. hopefully my entire colony wasnt situated there at least i still have a strip of my old carbon media in there (along the back), which was donated from my other tank in the first month. i remember seeing the brown stain on there that you talk of

OK, another thing, and you can plan to do this next time, no problem that you did less this time, is that "percentage" water changes (like your 5G out of 25G) have no "meaning" during fishless cycling. A kickstart water gravel-clean-water-change during fishless should just be right on down to the substrate taking as much water out as possible. This way you get the maximum re-boost of your calcium, iron, pH, oxygen etc. from the water change. "Percentage" or "Partial" water changes are only necessary for -fish- to lessen some of the potential shock to them and even that is not really needed if you've been water changing on a regular basis so that your tank water params are similar to your tap params.

The 5G was after the whole water change was done, and happened to be the amount I needed to take back out in order to clean the gunk from the sand (since I had stupidly put all the gunk back in my tank). The actual water change was at least 90%. I went all the way down to as close to the sand as I can get without starting to pick up the sand with what I was trying to take out. There was an inch or less of water left at it's lowest point.

Now when you clean (gently squeeze sponge, swish ceramic rings, carbon, etc.) the media in the tank water you've successfully protected your bacteria (you keep it wet with tank water the whole time but its not necessary that it be completely submerged the whole time. Short movements through the air will actually give the bacteria a nice dose of oxygen, but just don't let it dry out be inadvertant inattention. The -other- parts, the filter box etc. can be cleaned right under the tap if that's easier, the leftover droplets of tap water will not contain enough chlorine to cause any problem. I just spent the whole morning doing this stuff and let me tell you I cleaned a lot of tank objects under tap water!

I'll remember those tips for the next time I clean. The thing that worried me the most is the film of gunk that developed on the bottom of the sponge filter media, which was doing the most to block the flow. There was no way to improve water flow without scrubbing it off, and I was worrying I was destroying a colony of bacteria. Now that I see all that crap at the bottom of my tank it's quite obvious that I don't want it stuck to my media lol

If your water change did not achieve a pH of about 8.0 to 8.4 then I'd dose a teaspoon of kitchen baking soda in there to help make it higher. What did the water change get you? Did you remember to plug your heater back in and get your temp back up to 29C/84F?

I re-tested right after and got a pH of 7.8. We finally have baking soda on hand. I'll give that a try too. I have a feeling my pH will be diving again soon anyway. Yes on the heater, altho I think I need a new one. Sometimes the tank feels warm as it should, but sometimes (like now) it doesn't feel warm at all. Not cold, but not warm either

Thanks waterdrop. This would all be a disaster without your ongoing help

 

[waterdrop]

OK, good, sounds like we've communicated all of it. You've just got me still confused on one thing though and at the risk of belaboring it I'm going to ask again. The picture I got was that you took about all of the water out, cleaned your filter media in it and then put most of that water with the debris from the cleaning BACK into the tank. The you proceeded to siphon the bottom, which took out about 20% and you returned 20% dechlorinated tap water to replace that. Have I got that right? Because if I do then you only are getting the benefit of a 20% water change, not the 80 or 90% you could have. I always use the word water change to imply old water going out and fresh tap water coming in.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[JustFrozen]

sorry, i could have been more clear about that.

- i took all the water out and threw it down the drain except the last bucket (about 2-3 gallons)
- i used that last bit of water from the tank to clean the filter and then put it all back in
- i added 2x 25 gallons worth of dechlorinator to the tank for all the tap water i was about to add (rather than adding it to each bucket)
- i refilled the tank to the top using clean tap water
- this is where i took 5G of water (about 2 buckets full) out trying to clean the bottom of the tank
- i replaced the 5G with fresh water

the way i see it, at worst this was an 80% water change. i knew i wasnt going to get my pH back up without replacing the vast majority of the water in the tank, i just was confused about the filter cleaning part of it.

since we're still clearing up confusion, i'll ask this again: am i supposed to just dump the water that i clean the filter in?

 

[JustFrozen]

well.. i was excited to finally see ammonia gone after 24 hours, and it's been consistently doing that for days now..... but... started testing nitrite again at 24hrs and it's there again. part of me thinks its off the chart as the drops slowly turn purple at the bottom after dropping them in (its been a long time since doing these tests) and it's hard to match up the results because it seems so bright compared to the chart. based on hue though it looked to start at 2ppm and latest test showed 1ppm. my god hopefully it's really getting close to zero so i can start 12hr testing because it's been 140 days and i'm starting to consider finding another hobby

 

[waterdrop]

Yes, purple drops at the bottom of the tube sounds like nitrite off the chart.

How many days would this most recent fishless cycling effort be? If I remember, you had to start over after a period when you were unable to carry out the process.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[JustFrozen]

all the same cycle i'm afraid. it's obvious i've messed up somewhere, but i'm still trying. maybe i didnt do the conditioner right one time, who knows.

it took over 2 months to get nitrite to stop peaking, and it's been a long road to nowhere since then.

 

[waterdrop]

There are two things that come to mind. First and most important I think we should try some weekend water changes. We basically copy what will be done after you get fish and are doing normal maintenance but in this case we siphon out all the way down near the gravel and of course we recharge the ammonia back to 4-5ppm (and some baking soda since you're doing that, although let's keep that a little lighter amount than before). The idea of this is to clear out all the excess nitrite and nitrate - we might even want to do more than one of these in succession if the nitrate doesn't seem low after the first one.

Second thing that comes to mind is this other case of Ape-man, who didn't finish and he afterward, in discussion with locals, found some comments that the water system in the area had extremely high calcium and that others had had trouble cycling also. This kind of thing is a rare possibility. In his case though I think the pH stayed extremely high with no baking soda, unlike yours.

Thirdly, and I think we could save this for later, I suppose we could review your hob filter again and see if we think it needs a gentle squeeze-out or has anything else to raise suspicion but my recollection was that I remember you having basically everything right early on in the fishless cycle. Really frustrating as we've just been having a batch of cases that have run through as expected and are ending in under a month, so of course we continue to see that the process -can- work beautifully. I've even thought of whether we might order a couple of Salifert individual tests and go fishing for high values of calcium, copper or who knows what else in your water.. but that might be silly.

WD