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[Rhiannon]

It was know it all female.

And its not the first time, I have seen it one to many times and I have had enough.

And if you ask me, putting in your little edit thing about what I wrote earlier, is just trying to stir the pot. I removed it for a reason, but you had to add it again just so she see's it. How pathetic is that.

I'm just peeved that I didn't initially quote you directly so that there would be a lasting record of "the pot calling the kettle black". I want everyone to see it, not just Sylvia.

Btw, "how pathetic is that" is unnecessary and insulting. Which makes it fit the technical definition of a flame. You have also responded on three different occassions to indicate that your feelings were hurt by Sylvia correcting your misinformation. One of these responses included directly insulting terminology, which I will admit that you did voluntarily remove because you recognized it as inappropriate. All of this without Sylvia's notice or response.

You are also complaining that Sylvia routinely provides correct, factual, non-emotive information to those who are misinformed. I would like to invite you to read any of Fizban's posts in the Gourami forum as evidence that Sylvia is an incredibly patient, intelligent, well-informed and committed fish-keeper. She does not deserve accusations of being a "know it all" or demands that she spend additional time coddling people that she probably doesn't even know that she offended.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: just because someone corrects you or disagrees with you doesn't make them rude. Facts don't have to be presented with a smiley-face and a pat on the back. Might I suggest that you are being a smidgen oversensitive with regards to the perceived rudeness of others? By the way, right now I'm being antagonistic--not rude. In fact, I'm taking special care to be very polite to you as I defend my friend from your attack on her character.

Oh, and your signature is breaking the rules. You might want to fix that. See? Now I'm being helpful.

Just skimmed through that, couldnt be bothered reading it, do you want to write a 1000 word essay next time over a little comment? Who seriously cares. Not me. I dont have time to sit down and write, write, write.

Btw, I did see you wrote my feelings were not hurt. If someone called me a fat pig dirty sl** that would hurt my feelings lol. I am just sick of people on here with very high post counts thinking they know everything and can speak down to people. Its the same people on every occasion. Thats why so many people come and go.

 

[K.J.]

 

[pica_nuttalli]

sorry, KJ, for derailing the topic... i just hate to see my friends be picked on; hypocrisy only compounds the issue.

 

[WildernessLofts]

BACK ON TOPIC:

A liger could be a sort of example, yes.

Common examples would include mules, catalina macaws, and various other things we see all of the time.

 

[Gatorbait]

Why would anyone want to flame here in particular?

There are many long-time aquarists that are against hybrids. They would like the lines to remain pure and feel that hybridization isn't normal, doesn't happen in nature, makes the fish less healthy and less beautiful and if kept up there would be no pure fish remaining.

It's an extremely touchy subject for both sides of the war on hybrids.

 

[Nevergone815]

BACK ON TOPIC:

A liger could be a sort of example, yes.

Common examples would include mules, catalina macaws, and various other things we see all of the time.

I know of ligers and tigons and mules... what's a catalina macaw crossed between?... I admit I'm being a little lazy on research

Why would anyone want to flame here in particular?

There are many long-time aquarists that are against hybrids. They would like the lines to remain pure and feel that hybridization isn't normal, doesn't happen in nature, makes the fish less healthy and less beautiful and if kept up there would be no pure fish remaining.

It's an extremely touchy subject for both sides of the war on hybrids.

Nice way to get this topic all the way back on topic (went a little nuts on the emotes... I'm sorry )

 

[WildernessLofts]

BACK ON TOPIC:

A liger could be a sort of example, yes.

Common examples would include mules, catalina macaws, and various other things we see all of the time.

I know of ligers and tigons and mules... what's a catalina macaw crossed between?... I admit I'm being a little lazy on research

Why would anyone want to flame here in particular?

There are many long-time aquarists that are against hybrids. They would like the lines to remain pure and feel that hybridization isn't normal, doesn't happen in nature, makes the fish less healthy and less beautiful and if kept up there would be no pure fish remaining.

It's an extremely touchy subject for both sides of the war on hybrids.

Nice way to get this topic all the way back on topic (went a little nuts on the emotes... I'm sorry )

Which pretty much reiterated a lot of what I had already said.

Catalina is a cross between a scarlet and a blue and gold macaw.

 

[The-Wolf]

doesn't happen in nature

it does happen in nature but it is extreamly rare and the offspring are usually sterial and
won't acheive their full lifespan, unless mankind interveens

 

[Gatorbait]

doesn't happen in nature

it does happen in nature but it is extreamly rare and the offspring are usually sterial and
won't acheive their full lifespan, unless mankind interveens

Yea, I agree that it might happen in nature in very rare cases. I was just more or less quoting what I hear from the cichlid faithful as to some reasons they don't like hybrids.

But thank you for backing me up in case I didn't know or for those that might have thought that. I appreciate it.

 

[-germ-]

Has no one heard of the cow+sheep+babygoat hybrid?
Its called a milky baa kid....

BOOM BOOM!

Ps; sorry i couldn't help myself

 

[dwarfgourami]

Hybridisation in livebearers is actually quite interesting as it can (occasionally) result in stronger, more sexually successful offspring. This is the case in certain limias for instance, and the platy/swordtail offspring commonly seen in lfs are certainly not infertile It seems some hybridisation of livebearers does take place in nature too, but naturally livebearer enthusiasts are quite wary of it in rare species, as some of these may be becoming extinct in the wild and so depend on captive stocks, so you wouldn't want those mixed up.

And then there is the case of the amazon molly, which only produces females which then have to mate with a male of a related molly species. This is not hybridisation, however, as the male does not contribute any genetic material, his sperm is just needed to stimulate the female to produce embryos entirely made up of her genetic material.

Sorry, getting totally side-tracked....

 

[Gatorbait]

BACK ON TOPIC:

A liger could be a sort of example, yes.

Common examples would include mules, catalina macaws, and various other things we see all of the time.

I know of ligers and tigons and mules... what's a catalina macaw crossed between?... I admit I'm being a little lazy on research

Why would anyone want to flame here in particular?

There are many long-time aquarists that are against hybrids. They would like the lines to remain pure and feel that hybridization isn't normal, doesn't happen in nature, makes the fish less healthy and less beautiful and if kept up there would be no pure fish remaining.

It's an extremely touchy subject for both sides of the war on hybrids.

Nice way to get this topic all the way back on topic (went a little nuts on the emotes... I'm sorry )

Which pretty much reiterated a lot of what I had already said.

Catalina is a cross between a scarlet and a blue and gold macaw.

I saw that. I didn't mean to copy and those aren't necessarily my views or beliefs, I just thought that it was getting off topic a bit. That's all I could really think of. lol

I wonder how many people that are against hybrids have Discus or plan on trying to find one in the lfs?

 

[nmonks]

The issue with hybrids is much more complicated than some posters seem to think. It has almost nothing to do with "morals" as such, nor a need to keep the "species pure". If I hybridise two species of Corydoras, the chances of those catfish swimming across the Atlantic and then "messing up" the gene pool of wild Corydoras species is zero. Hybrids aren't, on the whole, successful in the wild because they can't attract mates as successfully as pure-bred species, perhaps because they don't have the right colours, don't perform the right display, or whatever. There are exceptions though, but as The-Wolf mentioned hybridisation is relatively uncommon among animals in the wild.

The main problem with hybrids in fish *fishkeeping hobby* is this: what do you sell the hybrids as? The most common situation is with African cichlids. Females of many species are identical and males are often relatively difficult to tell apart. When the fish are sold as one species, the buyer knows what he or she is getting. But if then hybrise that species with another, the 'mongrel' cichlids may look like either parent species. I take the young fish to my local fish store, and if I am a bad person, sell them as Melanochromis auratus rather than Melanochromis auratus x Melanochromis loriae. The retailer takes them in good faith, and sells them on as Melanochromis auratus. Someone buys one and crosses with a Melanochromis auratus he already has, and the babies look like Melanochromis auratus but are 25% something else. And so on. Since genes go with size and behaviour, if I buy one species expecting it to be (say) peaceful and 10 cm long, but it turns out to be aggressive and 20 cm long, buying the hybrid is very bad news. If I am a serious fishkeeper who wants to observe different species or build up a collection, hybrids are a waste of space.

If people want to experiment with hybrids, that's fine, but they must always ask themselves what will they do with the offspring. All too often the fry are passed off as another species. Endler guppies in the commercial side of the hobby are 99% hybrids simply because they cross with regular guppies so easily and sell for twice the price. Less expensive African cichlids are very, very commonly hybrids. Mollies, angelfish, platies, and probably discus are all hybrids as well, and this is one reason why in some cases their behaviour (e.g. angelfish) and water chemistry requirements (e.g. mollies) can be difficult to predict.

The other big issue is simple welfare. A hybrid Endler guppy isn't particularly disadvantaged, but things like blood parrot cichlids almost certainly are compared with their ancestors. In changing their body shape so severely, they are less able to swim and less able to ineract (i.e., fight!) than normal cichlids. For whatever reason, the people who are attracted to blood parrots "because they are cute" also seem to be happy to buy these fish when they are tattooed, and this hybrid is by far the species most likely to be tattooed or otherwise messed about with (e.g., have its tail cut off).

In a very few cases, hybridising may cause more immediate problems. With my halfbeaks, I suspect that because the pregnancy method for each species is different, accidental hybridsation actually puts the mother at risk. While they don't seem to hybridise generally, where a female died from a horrible explosion of her oviduct because the babies couldn't get out, I fear that was after she was fertilised by the "wrong" male.

In short, hybridising is something that needs to be considered in the big picture, and the implications *always* considered. Unless you have a known, honest buyer for your hybridised fish, then the offspring *must* be destroyed after your experiment. Doing anything else is grossly irresponsible.

Cheers, Neale

 

[Gatorbait]

The issue with hybrids is much more complicated than some posters seem to think. It has almost nothing to do with "morals" as such, nor a need to keep the "species pure".

Great post.

I hope by taking this part only that I'm not taking it out of context but I think aquarists that buy from an lfs or "breeder" that is does have to do with morals and a willingness to keep the lineage remaining pure. At least, whenever I've heard the arguments for it that's the way I took it. I never took it as they were so much worried as if it got back into the wild but unless you go to Africa or South/Central America and fish for them yourselves it seems to be a valid worry.

Personally, I don't care what people do with their fish and agree they should keep or destroy all hybrids as 90% of the fish I keep I don't have any worry about crossbreeding.

 

[Nevergone815]

The issue with hybrids is much more complicated than some posters seem to think. It has almost nothing to do with "morals" as such, nor a need to keep the "species pure".

Great post.

Ditto




I can't believe I actually said "ditto"