I Have Started A Cycle With Live Plants!

[sean0151]

Hi Folks
I have posted similar elsewhere but decided may be better here.
I recently bought a second hand 600ltr tank and Fluval FX5 filter which had not been shut off for long so was hoping some bacteria may still be
alive.
I set the tank up with substrate some ornaments a few plastic plants and 15 live plants of various types.
I started a fishless cycle by dosing to 5ppm and it started shifting straightaway to my pleasure.I thought it may be the filter still active but now i read this section of the forum is it possible or likely that its the plants doing this.

What should i do now.
What problems will i have if i continued the fishless cycle and can they be overcome?
If continueing is not advised at what point and how do i stop?
Kind Regards
Sean

 

[reignofcheese]

With a live planted tank the best way to do it is just add the fish. Not too many of course, but you can be assured that with live plants in the tank, a small number of fish, and you doing periodic partial water changes, things will be fine. If the filter hasn't been without fish for too long, it will probably have your tank cycled in no time anyway.

I have not tried it, but I've read enough places that the high levels of a fishless cycle can hurt at least some plants, and I wouldn't do it. In your position right now I would clear out the ammonia with water changes and just get my aquarium started with low levels of live stock.

 

[RadaR]

Have a thorough read.

Why We Should Not Fishless Cycle Planted Tanks

 

[JoshuaA]

Have a thorough read.

Why We Should Not Fishless Cycle Planted Tanks

I read this before I started cycling my 10gallon betta tank. However I came into possession of many Amazon swords, anubias, various weeds and an unknown plant trimming which has done quite well.

Anyway I was sticking to the cycle as normal and the ammonia was being reduced in 12 hours. From when I dosed it at 8pm to the morning before the light went on there was nothing. Of course nitrite was sky high and it is usually is processed by 12 but I'm kind of waiting for my qualifying week.

Anyway, maybe a week n a half into the cycle (mature media) was getting there quite fast I planted my tank. I never noticed any difference in speed and if anything the filter is still growing in strength visually the bacterial colonies are exploding from what they were before the plants were introduced. The plants are flourishing and I haven't seen anything out of the ordinary, it literally looks like a tank where fish should be

Furthermore I introduced a coconut cave with moss which had algae on I didn't think about it until 2/3 days after I put it in the tank, anyway I've been dosing with Seachem Flourish and Flourish Excel for some time now and the algae is disappearing.

So this leads me to believe from what I read on that thread states the only disadvantages are....

1) Possible Algae
2) Plants may out-compete your bacteria wasting your time cycling

From my experience my plants haven't decreased the cycle speed anyway.

So with my little plant experience I would advise planting cycling tanks as "Ok" however I strongly recommend only when the ammonia is 0 during the time your light is on. So possible 2 weeks into some standard cycles.

Does anyone agree or have anything put onto this? Or am I lucky that my tank didn't explode into an algae farm?

I also have 9 marimo moss balls ( I ordered 5)

 

[Dave Spencer]

So this leads me to believe from what I read on that thread states the only disadvantages are....

1) Possible Algae
2) Plants may out-compete your bacteria wasting your time cycling

Try also:

1) You need to buy expensive test kits.
2) You need to mess about with inaccurate test kits daily, which often lie.
3) You need to buy ammonia.
4) You need to add measured amounts of this toxin daily.
5) You have to wait several weeks before adding fish.

Planted tanks require no cycling and no testing. By all means, do these things if you wish, but it all seems very pointless to me. I could have a tank full of fish while you carry out this qualifying period mallarkey alone.

To the OP, I would say carry on as you are. Enjoy the work.

Regards, Dave.

 

[JoshuaA]

So this leads me to believe from what I read on that thread states the only disadvantages are....

1) Possible Algae
2) Plants may out-compete your bacteria wasting your time cycling

Try also:

1) You need to buy expensive test kits.
2) You need to mess about with inaccurate test kits daily, which often lie.
3) You need to buy ammonia.
4) You need to add measured amounts of this toxin daily.
5) You have to wait several weeks before adding fish.

Planted tanks require no cycling and no testing. By all means, do these things if you wish, but it all seems very pointless to me. I could have a tank full of fish while you carry out this qualifying period mallarkey alone.

To the OP, I would say carry on as you are. Enjoy the work.

Regards, Dave.

Interesting, you don't even buy a test kit for your planted tank? You just hope you've got enough plants that they'll counter what the filter does?

ammonia costs nothing like £1.85, test kits are usually deemed necessary for all tanks and a good one only costs £20 and they seem reasonably accurate to me. Better than not having one at all.

I was tempted to go for a planted tank approach without cycling but since its only a 10gallon tank I did not believe I could "cram" enough plants into the tank to actually cope with the bioload of some fish. My plants are purely there for th efish to swim through when its ready. It clearly doesn't look good for their processing abilities when they haven't effected the cycle, although its finished now, though I'm waiting till I've got a good few days free to set them up in their tank.

 

[ian]

Most of us with planted tanks don't use test kits, as dave say they are often inaccurate and when using ferts you can get false negatives on results.

 

[PDSimon]

I don't think there is an arguement for fishless cycling vs silent cycling

It's just about what you want and to argue price is a waste of time, as plants are expensive and so is c02. So when most guys come onto this fish forum they want the best for their fish, which most of the time is a fishless cycle... I understand that article but I think its for more experienced members. I don't really get the whole c02 side either... I'd rather just do the walstad method lol

 

[RadaR]

Interesting, you don't even buy a test kit for your planted tank?

Correct, we simply don't need them.

You just hope you've got enough plants that they'll counter what the filter does?

Eh?

Better than not having one at all.

Not when you don't need them
If one was starting for the first time, I can see why folks would like to keep a test kit. Eventually they'll grow out of it though.
But this cycling method (silent cycling) has no need for test kits.

 

[Dinky Stig]

ammonia costs nothing like £1.85, test kits are usually deemed necessary for all tanks and a good one only costs £20 and they seem reasonably accurate to me. Better than not having one at all.

you'd be surprised, I had 3 Master test kits tested against calibrated digital equipment and the inaccuracy was shocking, fishless cycling is a waste of time too, I'd much rather do a fish in cycle, and before anyone says 'oh, think of the fish' if you do it properly then no harm is done.

I've not tested my water for absolutely ages, I can't remember the last time.

 

[JoshuaA]

You just hope you've got enough plants that they'll counter what the filter does?

Eh?

Absorb the fish waste? As opposed as the bacteria in the filter media processing ammonia and nitrite? After all your plants will out-compete the bacteria in the filter and result in a much smaller colony right? So do you still use a filter or just a powerhead to eliminate dead zones?

Also

Can some of you lovely people ID my plants?

http/img249.images...71/p1260298.jpg
http/img810.images...33/p1260299.jpg
http/img401.images...95/p1260300.jpg
http/img130.images...66/p1260301.jpg
http/img441.images...30/p1260302.jpg
http/img204.images...70/p1260303.jpg
http/img709.images...52/p1260304.jpg
http/img121.images...62/p1260305.jpg
http/img819.images...65/p1260306.jpg
http/img689.images...07/p1260307.jpg
http/img14.imagesh...95/p1260308.jpg

I have a rough idea of what they are but I don't know whether they are or not java ferns. I ordered a huge amount of water sprites because I love them and just asked if he had any spare rhizomes or bulbs to pop them in... He did and now I'm confused on what there might be there lol

Help is greatly appreciated!

Making the jump from tropical discussion to planted tanks and now I've discovered an alternative universe! haha

- Cheers

P.S this is only my 2nd tank so I'm not prepared to risk the fish when they go in and find out I haven't put enough plants in.

 

[RadaR]

You just hope you've got enough plants that they'll counter what the filter does?

Eh?

Absorb the fish waste? As opposed as the bacteria in the filter media processing ammonia and nitrite? After all your plants will out-compete the bacteria in the filter and result in a much smaller colony right? So do you still use a filter or just a powerhead to eliminate dead zones?

The plants do indeed utilise alot of the ammonia but the filter still has working bacteria. The plants wont get rid of all the ammonia, there are still tiny concentrations that the nitrifying bacteria will convert to nitrite then nitrate. Alot of the nitrite will also go to the plants. Enough of it so that we don't see it being registered on a test kit. We wouldn't want to greatly outcompete the filter (just enough so that ammonia doesn;t appear on test kit), infact that would be very hard to do. Yes, the filter is also providing flow to the plants to ensure CO2 and nutrients are delivered. If they weren't the plants wouldn't grow, therefore wouldn't use the ammonia but instead probably leach it.
The plants are also providing oxygen to the bacteria in the substrate and filter. The waste from plants (composed largely from carbon) goes greatly towards promoting the bacteria.

 

[ian]

Josh...your links aren't working for the plant ID. Try starting another thread incase this one gets lost.

 

[JoshuaA]

The plants do indeed utilise alot of the ammonia but the filter still has working bacteria. The plants wont get rid of all the ammonia, there are still tiny concentrations that the nitrifying bacteria will convert to nitrite then nitrate. Alot of the nitrite will also go to the plants. Enough of it so that we don't see it being registered on a test kit. We wouldn't want to greatly outcompete the filter (just enough so that ammonia doesn;t appear on test kit), infact that would be very hard to do. Yes, the filter is also providing flow to the plants to ensure CO2 and nutrients are delivered. If they weren't the plants wouldn't grow, therefore wouldn't use the ammonia but instead probably leach it.
The plants are also providing oxygen to the bacteria in the substrate and filter. The waste from plants (composed largely from carbon) goes greatly towards promoting the bacteria.

Interesting, thanks a lot of for the insight into it. I like learning the science side a lot more than just being told "it does that" sort of thing. Cheers, I completely forgot about the plants actually providing more oxygen to the bacteria, seems like the combination of both is better. What about surface agitation do any of you rely on keeping agitation low and relying on the plants releasing enough O2? Or do you still recommend agitating the surface (I'm not dosing CO2).

I'll repost the links I copied and pasted them from a personal messsage so I forgot about the .... part the forums always does.

Plant 1
http/img249.imageshack.us/img249/1871/p1260298.jpg
http/img810.imageshack.us/img810/5233/p1260299.jpg
http/img401.imageshack.us/img401/5095/p1260300.jpg
http/img130.imageshack.us/img130/5366/p1260301.jpg
Plant 2
http/img441.imageshack.us/img441/530/p1260302.jpg
Plant(s) 3
http/img204.imageshack.us/img204/4270/p1260303.jpg
http/img709.imageshack.us/img709/9052/p1260304.jpg
http/img121.imageshack.us/img121/1762/p1260305.jpg
http/img819.imageshack.us/img819/6665/p1260306.jpg
http/img689.imageshack.us/img689/9407/p1260307.jpg
http/img14.imageshack.us/img14/8995/p1260308.jpg

Sorry about the quality, did it in a bit of a rush.

Thanks a lot in advance for the help, just didn't want to clutter up the section with another thread about ID'ing so sorry for hijacking this one as well

- Cheers

Josh

Edit:

Just noticed the colour is really off in some of the pictures, none of the leaves are actually browny, all are actually a consistent dark green just I guess the camera messed up. Also I have another trimming currently in the tank that has been there for a long time and has grown a huge amount of routes and exploded in height but I have no idea what it is. I'll get a picture tomorrow or something when I begin planting my tank more!

 

[RadaR]

Interesting, thanks a lot of for the insight into it. I like learning the science side a lot more than just being told "it does that" sort of thing. Cheers, I completely forgot about the plants actually providing more oxygen to the bacteria, seems like the combination of both is better. What about surface agitation do any of you rely on keeping agitation low and relying on the plants releasing enough O2? Or do you still recommend agitating the surface (I'm not dosing CO2).

I've been trying to find an article I read that explained this all beautifully, but I can't find it. It wasn't on TFF.......
With regards to surface agitation. We like to provide some sufrace movement as this promotes good gas exchange and helps against potential oily proteins forming on the surface. Ripples are good but we dont want to "break" the surface and cause splashes as this will drive off CO2. This applies whether you're injecting CO2 or not.