House Cats

[Bloo]

Although I would like to argue with you RandomWiktor: Cats never kill for fun, they are not murderers, they are killers and always eat their prey, and they only kill up to 5% of their prey, that is the most they ever kill because that is the safe range for the species of prey to survive so cats can kill them some more.

Uhm that's quite 100% wrong.
I've had many cats (ranging from high pedigrees to moggies to semi ferrals), where they had free roam access outside - that catch and kill something (mouse, rat, bird or snake) and simply bring it in and drop it at our feet with a pleasing miauw and purr. And look up to say "look what I brought you mummy"
And even more horrid: quite often only maimed (broken wing or leg or semi crushed skull). And sometimes I'd come across on of my cats seeming to "play" with something (and a tapping around a ball kind of fashion or prodding the object as if to say "play with me") only for me to realise it's a dying or maimed prey.

So no: not all (probably even not most) cats will eat their kill. Or even partly.

The rest of this debate I'm staying out of !

 

[K.J.]

When I said the lion statement I meant that it would be trapped in a tiny, circus-like cage. Not implying that all zoos are like that, but in my eyes a cat trapped in a house would feel like a lion trapped in a cage it could barely turn around it. When lions or other large cats can have an outside habitat with grass and water it would be fine, but indoor cats won't be able to feel the same thing.

Cats never kill for fun, they are not murderers, they are killers and always eat their prey, and they only kill up to 5% of their prey, that is the most they ever kill because that is the safe range for the species of prey to survive so cats can kill them some more.

On this however I'm afraid I have to disagree with you. I've seen my cat kill a small animalo plenty and then just leave it on our doorstep. And then there was a case that she brought it inside and ate in under our bed, but that was a completely different cat. It's really the cats technique. I find most of my cats prefer canned food to wild food, but find the joy of hunting better than being served dinner in a dish.

I wish people who want to let their cats out would do it the responsible way and build a damned cat enclosure, just like people with dogs build fences and kennels. Wild animals have no where else to go but the outdoors; I despise the fact that their home is constantly encroached upon by felines who have the prey drive and killing efficieny of a wild predator, but the robust health and lack of competition of a pet. It is a deadly, dangerous combination that has resulted in countless wild animals being senselessly killed - and even entire species of songbirds being decimated in much of their range - just so people can see how "cute" it is to watch their kitty hunt. (And yet they have the effrontery to get miffed when a coyote - a wild, native predator - picks off their cat.)

Cat's are meant to kill wild animals such as squirrels or chipmunks, if that's what you mean. Once again with the domesticated cat/wild cat statement, if you deprive a lion of a meerkat can it be fully happy? No. There as as many squirrels in the world as meerkats, yet no one drags a lion away from killing it's prey. You simply cannot expect a cat to have a normal life watching a bird from behind a fence. I wouldn't personally get miffed if a coyote got my cat, but merely sad. It's the cycle of life and things will go on. The cat kills the bird, the coyote kills the cat, the bear kills the coyote. If you can't deal with that why even bother having pets? Every pet is going to kill something sometime.

Its funny, people always care SO much about their cat getting to be outdoors, but once you suggest something that would protect their cat's wellbeing and our wildlife, but takes money and effort to construct, they suddenly get cold feet and say its demanding too much.

It's barely considered 'outdoors' if the cat can only stare at the prey. Sure, the grass, maybe some trees, but real prey is the actual outside. It's not protecting your cat's wellbeing, it's destroying it's 'spirit' for outside. I've actually heard my cat 'chuffing' from a window because it wanted to go out so much. It's just not right to keep a perfectly cat healthy indoors or outdoors without letting it kill prey.

Maybe a cat that has never been outdoors in it's life, say, has been bred from a long line of cats that are indoors and like to stay that way, would prefer to stay indoors and watch from behind a window. But this isn't always true, even if you do have a long line of cats from indoors a cat will always want to be outside. It's amazing to see the joy on a cat's face when it goes outside for the first time - and then they'll want to go out over and over again. That's when you know that's where there meant to be, expecially when you see them with their first kill.

 

[Captain Retardo]

When cats bring kills home that means that they want you to eat it, that is what they do to kittens they bring the prey home, they think they are in a mother role. And when they bring live kills they want you to practice catching it. Cats place people in roles, either your cat is a parent to you or the cat is a child and you are the parent. Just because your are bigger than them dosen't mean they think your they're parent. They have a parental instinct which drives them to catch animals and bring it back to kittens so the kittens can practice hunting or so the kittens can eat.

Sorry though that I said they eat everything they kill, they bring it back home for a reason, not just for fun. Cats don't kill animals and leave them, they don't waste energy in hunts just for fun.

A MASSIVE percentage of tropical fish, and basically all marine fish, are wild caught. Never get to see the wild? Hah! They were taken from the wild for our amusement, often at a great cost to the species' population and the native habitat's biodiversity. And unlike cats, a domesticated animal, they weren't bred to be suited for a captive lifestyle, which is why so many die before reaching the store, in the store, and of stupid, preventable illnesses in our homes. Yet you have the gall to say cats are more deserving of a "natural" life? If you're into animals living natural lives, fishkeeping really isn't the right hobby.

Marine fish are different, but I believe that the fish I have are farmed in captivity. And I am strongly against taking species from the wild, like marine fish as so stated.

I didn't say cats destroyed habitat. I said we've destroyed the habitat. It's just a pity, because I'd rather see our native wildlife out there hunting, instead of everything paved over and filled with a bunch of domesticated non-native species. It was just a side comment.

But most native wildlife can't live near people, they live away from people where domestic cats in far away cities and suburbs cannot hurt them. I just don't see how a cat can hurt predators in cities and suburbs because native predators don't live in cities and suburbs, they live in rural area, far away from people and domestic cats.

Also, they only kill up to 5% of their prey? That seems contrary to your previous statement about them killing all of their prey. Are you saying they what, just stalk and or injure the rest?

But cats cannot kill all the prey in their territory, that would be senseless they kill when they are hungry or for kittens (or people, who cats think are their kittens) Prey will always outweigh predator, the 5% fact is actually the safe percentage of prey that predators can kill of a group so that the group can keep healthy. There are three reasons that I can think of why a cat would not want to kill prey for fun: 1. Danger: killing prey can be dangerous, would if your cat was chasing a rabbit when he stepped in a ditch and broke his leg, also what if he was near the rabbit and the rabbit kicked the cat. 2. Population of prey, Cats need a certain amount of food in an area and if part of it is wild animal kills (rabbits, mice, birds) then why would they senselessly kill an animal that would be prey and just leave it there without eating it? And cats need to be intune to the amount of prey in their territory, if prey moves then the cat moves where the prey went. Although most cats get a lot of food from their owners they would stay in the area if their prey outside moved or was killed because humans constantly give them food, even though some percentage of their food is wild caught. 3. Waste of energy: why would a cat waste energy on a senseless kill? They would use that energy to kill an animal when they are hungry, or they use that energy to patrol their territory or mark it some more.

Also I would like to say that cats might be good for human populated areas, because all the natural predators are kicked out, the wildlife that can live in those areas will keep growing, and cats control those populations and they kill sick individuals also which helps stop spread disease in a group of prey animals. Say if a developement was built where bobcats used to thrive, well now bobcats couldn't live in that area anymore, so what would control the amount of rabbits that still could live in that area?

 

[wodesorel]

Okay, I have to butt in here.

I am a volunteer and an adoption coucilor at a VERY large shelter in the USA. We DO NOT adopt any cat to a home that lets it outside - at all. Why? Because the average life for an indoor-outdoor cat in the USA is 3 years. Indoor only cats? 18 years. Gee, isn't that reason enough?

And as for cats "naturally" needing to be outdoors. Hate to break it to people, but cats aren't native to the UK or the USA. In the wild, cats have miles of territory to themselves, in the USA, there are maybe 25 cats in the same area. That's not natural - and it's a risk. Not only that, but take into account dogs, cars, foxes, wolves, coyotes, and sick people who shoot and poison them. In their natural habitat, they never had to deal with these things. Putting them in a situation where they do is just cruel. Not only that, but they're destroying species that have no natural defence mechanism. So if you won't do it for the cats, do it for your environment.

FIV and FeLV is running rampant. There's a serious risk of rabies these days. The feline population is exploding, so if you have to let a cat outdoors, for heaven's sake, fix that baby! It's just not healthy for them, at all.

Now, I know some cats won't adapt to being indoors - but the majority of cats can - like 99% of all cats. I have seven, and they NEVER go outside - and three used to be outdoor only cats. They don't even ask because I don't make it an option. They don't act anything like a normal cat, because I never gave them the option to.

I just can't understand how people will still let their cats out even after losing five or six to horrid deaths. Heck, even having one cat hit by a car or torn apart by a wild animal should make people sick to their stomachs when even THINKING about touching a door handle to let a cat out. It's not normal. It's not natural. It's not "just what happens" when you have a cat. It should be a punishable offence by law. Dogs aren't allowed off leashes - why the heck should cats be any different?

Mine cats come when called, they follow me around, sleep with me every night, and act in every way like a dog - because I've never thought about them as being "just cats". Try seeing them like dogs, and then maybe people will start treating them the way they should - like mans' best friend.

Just teeks me off something awful.

 

[RandomWiktor]

Bah, I give up trying to explain the fact that domesticated cats aren't natural predators in the US. You're all talking about them like native wild animals, and they simply aren't, and as thus are in NO way comparable to a predator (ie. the ever popular lion) hunting natural prey in a native environment. Being an invasive species, they fit no where into the naturally occuring local food chain and have no benefit to anything, and typically do much more harm than good. Do you realize entire states have had song bird species decimated by predation from feral and free-roaming cats? There have been lengthy scientific studies showing that they have an absolutely devastating impact on wildlife, just as ANY non-native species inevitably does (just ask anyone who has watched european starlings or feral cattle ruin an environment). Worse still, because free-roaming pet cats are vaccinated against diseases, well fed, and recieve vet care, their numbers don't stay nice and low like wild predators, and they are thus more deadly as hunters as they are often both healthier (and thus more efficient) and in unnaturally high concentrations in small areas. But that point seems to be flying over everyone's head, since we love fluffy kitties so its OK that they're endangering our local ecology. I guess here's where you seperate the pet lovers from people who love and respect all animals as well as the environment they live in.
Also - cats absolutely do compete with native predators and omnivores in human-populated areas. Predators don't live in areas with humans? Hah! I live not an hour outside of NYC, and the city is full of foxes, coyotes, raccoons, skunks, predatory birds, and other omnivores and carnivores. And even though I live in a bustling suburb, we've had foxes in our yard, coyotes eating the feral cats, hawks grabbing birds out of our yards, etc. The wild is quite alive and well thank you, and I'm sure they'd appreciate having a few more prey species around, something which we're starting to lack thanks to the hundreds of feral cats in the area. They aren't filling a niche, they're destroying it, and ruining our biodiversity by disrupting the delicate balance between NATURAL predators and prey.

So, to recap for everyone who can't get this.... native species good and natural. Invasive species - even cute, cuddly ones that let us pet them - bad and un-natural.

Oh, and Wodesorel, good stuff! Our local shelters manage feral colonies with TNR so cats who can not accept indoor life don't have to, but they also don't adopt to people who are going to let the cats roam and get hit by cars, killed by dogs, infected with deadly diseases, or end up right BACK at the shelter. (Its sad, but its happened.)

 

[wodesorel]

We've considered micro-chipping the cats (they've been doing the dogs for years), just to keep track of who comes back, but the cost wouldn't be very effective. It's hard enough charging more than the free kittens in the local paper...

Once I started thinking about this, I remembered hearing about how keeping cats indoors in the UK is considered cruel. I think this may just be another "the other side of the pond" issue that probably will never have a resolution.

 

[K.J.]

Okay, I have to butt in here.

I am a volunteer and an adoption coucilor at a VERY large shelter in the USA. We DO NOT adopt any cat to a home that lets it outside - at all. Why? Because the average life for an indoor-outdoor cat in the USA is 3 years. Indoor only cats? 18 years. Gee, isn't that reason enough?

And as for cats "naturally" needing to be outdoors. Hate to break it to people, but cats aren't native to the UK or the USA. In the wild, cats have miles of territory to themselves, in the USA, there are maybe 25 cats in the same area. That's not natural - and it's a risk. Not only that, but take into account dogs, cars, foxes, wolves, coyotes, and sick people who shoot and poison them. In their natural habitat, they never had to deal with these things. Putting them in a situation where they do is just cruel. Not only that, but they're destroying species that have no natural defence mechanism. So if you won't do it for the cats, do it for your environment.

FIV and FeLV is running rampant. There's a serious risk of rabies these days. The feline population is exploding, so if you have to let a cat outdoors, for heaven's sake, fix that baby! It's just not healthy for them, at all.

Now, I know some cats won't adapt to being indoors - but the majority of cats can - like 99% of all cats. I have seven, and they NEVER go outside - and three used to be outdoor only cats. They don't even ask because I don't make it an option. They don't act anything like a normal cat, because I never gave them the option to.

I just can't understand how people will still let their cats out even after losing five or six to horrid deaths. Heck, even having one cat hit by a car or torn apart by a wild animal should make people sick to their stomachs when even THINKING about touching a door handle to let a cat out. It's not normal. It's not natural. It's not "just what happens" when you have a cat. It should be a punishable offence by law. Dogs aren't allowed off leashes - why the heck should cats be any different?

Mine cats come when called, they follow me around, sleep with me every night, and act in every way like a dog - because I've never thought about them as being "just cats". Try seeing them like dogs, and then maybe people will start treating them the way they should - like mans' best friend.

Just teeks me off something awful.

But what about if your cat is fixed, has rabies, comfortable neighbors and no other cats except for the ones it lives with, no cars? Is it still wrong to let them outdoors? It is wrong to let them out if you live in a busy city with lots of raccoons and other predators, but in the situation I have it seems fine.

But whatever, I'm giving up like Random_Wiktor. In the situation you guys have I can see how it would not be right to let cats out (Eg, city, predators) but in a natural habitat, Why not?

 

[Captain Retardo]

Everything you said I have never even heard of in my area so maybe where you live it is bad, but where I live I know some people's cats and most are outdoor and most are over 7 years old. I have never even heard of 1 cat death in my neighborhood, and most cats here are outdoor cats. We have tons and tons of songbirds here, I wake up in the morning and thats all you here outside too, and a whole lot of different calls. My cat mainly catches mice and rabbits, which are absolutely everywhere around here.

What is a domestic cats natural habitat then? the house? where they are miserable? Cats actually do develop problems when they are left inside they're whole life.

Either way- There are 2 good arguements for both sides, so I believe that cats should not be pets, and everybody should start helping cats in the wild, because people really f@$&#* them up.















Also I would like to add that those flat-faced indoor cats are extremely ugly!

 

[Timberview]

I let myne out alot on leashes of course

 

[RandomWiktor]

What is a domestic cats natural habitat then? the house?

As I've said in the last several pages... the domesticated cat does not have a natural environment, because they are the product of domestication, thus making them a wholly unnatural entity that has no natural place in any environment. (The closest you can get to a natural cat is the African wild cat - Felis silvestris libyca, the most recent ancestor of the domesticated cat... but 8,000 years of domestication have made them very different animals). Which is why they need human help to live even a fraction of their normal lifespan outdoors in the form of feeing and vet care.
I feed feral cat colonies, as well as trap them and have them sterilized and vaccined. They are the perfect example of how unsuited cats are for TRUE wild living. Sure, a cat that comes in at night, stays mostly in its yard, gets cat food daily, has all of its shots, and is spayed is a reasonably healthy animal, but it hardly what truly "wild" cats are like. The ferals I feed are emaciated, disease-ridden, injured from fights, stressed from too many litters, and they all die before their fifth birthday, even with intervention from humans. THAT is a what a domesticated animal looks like "wild."
Yeah, cats are still great hunters and they love the outdoors, but it doesn't mean it is a natural or healty environment for them. I agree that they should have protected, safe acess, just like a dog should have a leash, a cow should have a fence, and a chicken should have a coop. But even someone who loves letting their cat out should be able to see that letting a cat truly go all natural - no vaccines, no spay/neuter, no food - is a horrible thing, which is where the argument about the wild being a cat's "natural" environment falls apart.
Domestication is an agreement between animals and man. Animals give up part of their wildness and resilence in exchange for safety. They give up some of their freedom for a longer life span. They give up some of their instinct for the guarentee of food. When you take domesticated animals and try to make them wild again, they inevitably fail, which is why even outdoor cats still need feeding, vet care, and reproductive restriction to have any quality of life.

where they are miserable?

Claiming indoor cats are "miserable" is subjective and has no factual basis. Many cats who live indoors are very clearly, obviously content, and saying otherwise is a massive insult to everyone with happy, healthy, well-cared for housecats. Just because YOUR cat would be miserable inside doesn't mean EVERY cat would be. That's the problem with the argument about cats "needing" to be outdoors - it is all based in opinion, whereas the argument for keeping them in or enclosed has facts and statistics from credible sources like veterinarians and the department of environmental conservation about health, lifespan, impact on the environment, etc.

and everybody should start helping cats in the wild, because people really f@$&#* them up.

Amen to that! With the peril our wild cats live in, it seems silly to worry about housecats vs. outdoor cats vs. feral cats. Funny side note though, one of the biggest threats to the survival of the european wildcat - an ancestor of the domesticated cat - is interbreeding with feral and free-roaming domesticated cats. D'oh!

 

[Captain Retardo]

Okay, I hope we can get into an agreement, i looked on google and found this website http/cats.about.com/cs/catmanagement101/...dooroutdoor.htm and it basically says what I think, although I lean more to the outdoor side.

Claiming indoor cats are "miserable" is subjective and has no factual basis. Many cats who live indoors are very clearly, obviously content, and saying otherwise is a massive insult to everyone with happy, healthy, well-cared for housecats. Just because YOUR cat would be miserable inside doesn't mean EVERY cat would be. That's the problem with the argument about cats "needing" to be outdoors - it is all based in opinion, whereas the argument for keeping them in or enclosed has facts and statistics from credible sources like veterinarians and the department of environmental conservation about health, lifespan, impact on the environment, etc.

Okay okay, you have a good point there although indoor cats have been known to have behaviroal problems.


I would like to say though that I don't think letting my cat outside is really ruining the environment for other animals because developement of houses ruined the environment a long time ago, he is not affecting wild areas whatsoever.

I do believe that cats should be spayed and neutered because as RandomWiktor posted of a "Truly Wild domestic cat"

Sure, a cat that comes in at night, stays mostly in its yard, gets cat food daily, has all of its shots, and is spayed is a reasonably healthy animal, but it hardly what truly "wild" cats are like.

Domestication is an agreement between animals and man. Animals give up part of their wildness and resilence in exchange for safety.

My cat stays mostly in the yard gets cat food from the house, has all his shots, is spayed, and is very healthy animal. As for the domestication comment, I believe my cat can get the best of both worlds because we live in a safe place, and he has been healthy for 10 years, other than the annual 2 bouts of worms during the summer!

 

[wodesorel]

Do these guys really look that unhappy? I litteraly crawled out of bed on two consecutive mornings to take these picture because no-one ever believed me when I said my cats were like this:

Starting top left: Charlie, Merlin, Foofers, Indy (who was a foster cat and is now with a new family)

Top to bottom: Charlie, Merlin, Little ****

I couldn't imagine what they would do if I ever locked them out of my room at night, let alone let them outside.

Actually, come to think of it, I can't even lock them out anymore... I installed a cat door to my room a year ago, so I could sleep even when my mom was running around without sacrificing the cat's freedom to my room.

 

[Captain Retardo]

http/www.users.bigpond.com/berrime/inoutcats.htm

This gives both arguements.

Basically if you live in a safe place, it is perfectly fine to let your cat out!



Cats have and will never be fully domesticated.

I like cats because they are not like people, I like cats because of their sense of power, beauty, and wilderness and adventure, not because they sleep on the bed like humans, If I wanted a cat that acted like a person, I would have rather made another friend!



Please read the link that I posted on top, it is very good and gives good arguements for both sides, I think youll know where I'm coming from after reading it. Also please read the link that I posted beneath

http/www.users.bigpond.com/berrime/wildcats.htm

 

[wodesorel]

http/www.users.bigpond.com/berrime/inoutcats.htm

I like cats because they are not like people, I like cats because of their sense of power, beauty, and wilderness and adventure, not because they sleep on the bed like humans, If I wanted a cat that acted like a person, I would have rather made another friend!

Then you don't want a pet or companion, you want a thing.


Edit: Or are we just being trolled?

 

[Captain Retardo]

No, what i meant to say is that I like the wild side in my cat...sorry for the misunderstanding. I don't like dogs a lot because they are so un-natural like. with a cat you can see the nice loving side and also see the millions of years of instincts to hunt and kill and how perfect they are at it.

Did you read the webpage wodesorel?