Help Needed Please, new tank & new fish acting erratically then die.

[Derek Ian Gibbs]

• 
  
  Hi,
  
  54 litres 60cm x 30cm x 30cm
  HOB filter 450lph and sponge filter (20 gal rated) small power head for surface agitation
  Co2 via bell type reactor
  Heavily Planted: Anubis, Hydro Poly, Hair Grass, Crypts and various others
  Eco Complete substrate
  Air stone & pump
  Dragon rock (from an existing tank)
  RODI water with Equilibrium and Prime
  Fluval Cycle and AQ salt
  
  I recently decided to change to a RODI set up because of bad tap water in my area of the UK. Thanks to Seachem's techs for the advice and formula for the Equilibrium for the batch sizes.
  
  Mid tank cycle I swapped out the substrate having decided the original substrate (in the tank for 7 weeks) was sub standard. It was, I believe causing all the live plants to die and rot really quickly, and cause really bad sulfurous smells. I put in Eco Complete to a depth of 1 1\2" (front) to 3" at the rear of the tank. I realised that this would break the cycle of the tank, but thought it was worth it. I reused most of the live plants, filter media etc, and dosed with Cycle to get the good bacteria going again. I have also added media and rock from a well matured tank.
  
  After waiting 5 weeks (plus the 7 weeks previous) I took the plunge and added 4 Silver Tip Tetra and 2 Cory's and 2 Neritite snails. Within hours of adding them to the tank 1 had died. I then saw a further 2 of the Silver Tips swimming very erratically, mostly into the flow of my surface agitation pump. Both snails still alive as I write this. Did a 20% water change.
  
  Within hours they both had died, and the Cory's were dead by morning.
  
  I tested everything with my api kit, and the results were as follows:
  
  Ammonia 0 ppm
  Nitrites less than .25 ppm
  Nitrates 10 ppm
  PH 6.83
  Temp 79.1 f
  GH 10 drops
  Kh 10 drops
  TDS 291
  
  So, please could anyone give me so advice to where to go next. Do I add more fish? Do I try something different to Fluval Cycle? Give up on RODI Water? Or anything I have done wrong. This is the first new tank I have set up in many years, and have never had this issue before.
  
  Sorry for the long message, but any advice/help will be gratefully received. Thanks.

 

[Colin_T]

Hi and welcome to the forum

Do not add any new fish yet.

If fish are dying within a few hours of going into the tank, there is something in it that is poisoning the fish. It could be the substrate, something that has been used to clean the tank (contaminated sponge or bucket), CO2 poisoning (unlikely due to aeration), or the tap water.

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Running an air pump and having lots of surface turbulence in a planted tank with CO2 is counter productive. The aeration/ surface turbulence drives the CO2 out. Most people that add CO2 to the water reduce surface turbulence during the day when the lights are on and add aeration at night. Some people will also turn off the CO2 at night because it gets wasted if you add it to the tank when the lights are off.

During the day when the plants get light they use carbon dioxide (CO2) and release oxygen into the water and the fish can use that. At night when the tank lights are off, the plants use oxygen (O2) and release CO2.

If there is no surface turbulence at night the fish can suffocate due to plants, bacteria and fish using the oxygen, and the CO2 being added to the water.

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What is RODI?
I'm assuming it is reverse osmosis (R/O) water?
If yes you do not need to add Prime or other dechlorinators to the R/O water because chlorine/ chloramine should be removed from it by the carbon in the R/O filter.

Equilibrium, is that the liquid that buffs up the hardness?
If yes you are better off using a Rift Lake water conditioner at about 1/4 dose to get the general hardness (GH) to about 100ppm, which would suit tetras and Corydoras.

What is AQ salt, Aquarium Salt?
You don't want to add salt (sodium chloride) to tanks containing tetras and Corydoras unless it is being used to treat disease. Regular exposure to salt (even low levels) can damage the kidneys in soft water fishes like tetras and Corydoras.

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I would turn off the CO2 until you work out what is going on with the fish dying.

If there are no fish left in the tank than drain it and refill it with clean dechlorinated water or R/O water that has some minerals added to it. The main minerals you want are calcium & magnesium chloride and calcium & magnesium carbonate or bicarbonate.

The carbonates and bicarbonates will buffer the pH and help stop it dropping due to the CO2. The chlorides will increase the GH.

When the water has been replaced, wait a couple of days and add 2 cheap tetras (silver tip or glowlight) and see how they do. Don't add neons or cardinals and don't add more than 2 fish. If the 2 fish are fine for a week and don't die, then add more of them to increase the group to about 10.

If you do a complete water change and add 2 fish and they die, then I would look at replacing the substrate.

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Make sure you use a clean bucket that has never been used for anything except clean water for the fish.

Make sure you don't have any creams, grease, oils, perfumes, detergent, disinfectant or anything else on your hands when working in the tank.

Make sure there are no fumes in the room with the tank. This includes paint, perfume, deodorant, air fresheners, cigarette smoke, or anything else that releases fumes.

 

[Byron]

A couple of problems here.

First, you cannot (or should not) have cories over Eco-Complete; it is too sharp. I tried Flourite a few years ago, which felt OK in my hand compared to EC, but even that wreaked havoc with the barbels of my panda cories, and one even lost a chunk of its mouth. The other things about EC and Flourite is their basically uselessness; they do not have much if indeed any impact (beneficial) on plant growth.

Equilibrium...I assume this is why the GH is at 10 dGH? I would aim for less, 4 dGH is suggested as all that is needed by the planted tank folks elsewhere, though I do realize you have diffused CO2.

CO2 does impact fish too. There are scientific studies now that suggest this, plus what Colin posted. Except for the Hair Grass plant, the others do not need this. And no mention is made of nutrient supplementation, and without this the CO2 won't achieve anything with the plants. Equilibrium is only the "hard" minerals, not complete. ["High tech" systems generally work well for plants but the fish may not be so fortunate.]

Aquarium Salt. This will harm the fish mentioned, and maybe the plants depending upon level. No salt is or should be needed in freshwater tanks. Soft water fish are impacted. I don't know the level, so it may not have been sufficient to kill the fish. But in any event, it did affect them, and this makes them weaker when it comes to other issues.

 

[Derek Ian Gibbs]

A couple of problems here.

First, you cannot (or should not) have cories over Eco-Complete; it is too sharp. I tried Flourite a few years ago, which felt OK in my hand compared to EC, but even that wreaked havoc with the barbels of my panda cories, and one even lost a chunk of its mouth. The other things about EC and Flourite is their basically uselessness; they do not have much if indeed any impact (beneficial) on plant growth.

Equilibrium...I assume this is why the GH is at 10 dGH? I would aim for less, 4 dGH is suggested as all that is needed by the planted tank folks elsewhere, though I do realize you have diffused CO2.

CO2 does impact fish too. There are scientific studies now that suggest this, plus what Colin posted. Except for the Hair Grass plant, the others do not need this. And no mention is made of nutrient supplementation, and without this the CO2 won't achieve anything with the plants. Equilibrium is only the "hard" minerals, not complete. ["High tech" systems generally work well for plants but the fish may not be so fortunate.]

Aquarium Salt. This will harm the fish mentioned, and maybe the plants depending upon level. No salt is or should be needed in freshwater tanks. Soft water fish are impacted. I don't know the level, so it may not have been sufficient to kill the fish. But in any event, it did affect them, and this makes them weaker when it comes to other issues.

 

[Derek Ian Gibbs]

Thank you both for replying to my post. I am sorry for the delay, as I had a period in hospital (getting better now).

I have taken all of your valuable points on board, and will let you know how the tank progresses.

I will now turn off Co2 at night, and increase aeration and surface agitation during the night.

I was advised by my local fish store to add Prime, even though I stated that I would be using reverse osmosis & deionised water in the tank.

So as I now understand it I don't need Prime or any other declorinator to be added to the RODI water.

I remineralize the RODI water with Seachem Equilibrium, which I treat in 25L batches. I got the amount to add along with the acid & alkali buffers from the support dept of Seachem

The fish in question, were acclimatized (open bag in the tank) over 2 hours adding the tank water bit by bit over that time.

I have been having a terrible time adding live plants to the tank, that's why I use Co2 and Tropical fertilizers. All plants were rinsed in declorinated water, before putting in the tank. I tried to have a quite heavily planted tank having root tabs added underneath the hair grass.

Do you have any tips please, as the all start off well but then decline quickly?

Also, how do you suggest how I can lower the GH & KH in the tank please?

Thank you again for your help, and look forward to your thoughts.

Kind regards, Derek.

 

[Colin_T]

Theoretically reverse osmosis water has no chlorine or chloramine in because it is meant to be removed by a carbon filter in the R/O unit. If the carbon is good the water should be free of chlorine/ chloramine but if the carbon is full it won't absorb anything.

You should not have to add a dechlorinator to R/O water because it should be free of chlorine/ chloramine. However, it should be aerated for at least 30 minutes before using to get the dissolved gases in the water, back to normal.

You should also aerate the water for 24 hours after adding buffers to increase GH.

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How hard is your water supply, GH and KH?
If your water is less than 200pm GH, there is no need to use R/O water unless you keep wild caught fishes that naturally occur in very soft water. Most fish sold in pet shops are captive bred and any wild caught fish will usually have a sign on their tank saying wild caught.

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Hair grass is not a true aquatic plant and neither are Anubias species. Depending on what else you are trying to grow, you might just be bashing your head against a wall. Marsh plants like hair grass and Anubias like wet or damp roots but dry leaves. When you stick them under water, they usually loose the terrestrial leaves and grow submersed leaves. However, Hair grass is not even a good marsh plant and rots when kept under water.

A good way to check if aquarium plants are marsh plants or true aquatics is to take the plant out of water and see if it can stand up by itself. Marsh plants have a stronger stem and will remain upright when taken out of water, whereas true aquatic plants are much weaker and cannot support their own weight when removed from water. Basically marsh plants continue standing up and aquatic plants fall down when removed from water.

Some good plants to try include Ambulia, Hygrophila polysperma, H. ruba/ rubra, Elodia/ Hydrilla, narrow Vallis, common Amazon sword plant, and Water Sprite (Ceratopteris thalictroides).
Water Sprite is a floating plant that can also be planted in the gravel. The other plants should all be planted in the substrate.

Crypts can do well in aquariums but are not the best plants for beginners. They need to be handled carefully otherwise their rhizome will get damaged and rots and the plant dies.

You can rinse plants under normal tap water, the chlorine/ chloramine won't affect them and there won't be sufficient levels to affect fish.

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When keeping aquarium plants you want to have the lights on for long enough so the plants can photosynthesise but not too long so algae grows rampantly. A good way to see if the plants have had enough light is to look at the top few sets of leaves. With plants like Ambulia and Hygrophila sp, they close their leaves up when they have had enough light. They close the top set of leaves first because these are closest to the light. Then each pr of leaves gets closed up over time once the plant has had sufficient light.
When most of the leaves have closed up against the stem, you turn the lights out.

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When acclimatising fish to an aquarium I usually float the bag for about 30 minutes. 5 minutes after floating I add half a cup of tank water to the bag. Then every 5 minutes after that I add another half a cup of tank water to the bag. After 30 minutes or so I pour the fish into the tank.

This works well if the pH and GH in the bag is similar to the tank. If there is a noticeable difference it is usually a good idea to acclimatise them over a much longer time (24-48 hours) or adjust the GH and pH in the tank before getting the fish.

If you leave a fish in a bag for too long, and there is ammonia in the water in the bag, the fish can suffer a lot of damage. You want to acclimatise the fish as quickly as possible to get them out of the bag but at the same time you want to reduce stress/ shock from major differences in water chemistry.

 

[Byron]

I'll add a couple things to what Colin posted.

I remineralize the RODI water with Seachem Equilibrium, which I treat in 25L batches. I got the amount to add along with the acid & alkali buffers from the support dept of Seachem

Also, how do you suggest how I can lower the GH & KH in the tank please?

The Equilibrium is increasing the GH, not sure about KH (when I used this product I only tested GH). If you are starting with RO water and no other source water, then the GH is solely due to the Equilibrium; if other source water is being mixed in, that may factor in. I already suggested not to continue Equilibrium, or not as much anyway, as you do not need the GH higher than 4 dGH for plants and the substrate tabs and liquid fertilizer if any will add as well. Technically the Eco-complete should not affect GH, but it might.

I have been having a terrible time adding live plants to the tank, that's why I use Co2 and Tropical fertilizers. All plants were rinsed in declorinated water, before putting in the tank. I tried to have a quite heavily planted tank having root tabs added underneath the hair grass.

Do you have any tips please, as the all start off well but then decline quickly?

This is a complex topic but I will try to provide some guidance briefly to get you started. Different plant species have differing needs when it comes to light intensity, and then nutrient availability. This is why tanks with a mix of plant species having differing needs often fail, at least until you sort out what works under your light and then provide sufficient nutrients to balance. No mention is made of the light data here. CO2 will only benefit if the light is intense enough, and if all other required nutrients are sufficient for the plants. We need to know the lighting specs.

 

[Derek Ian Gibbs]

I'll add a couple things to what Colin posted.




The Equilibrium is increasing the GH, not sure about KH (when I used this product I only tested GH). If you are starting with RO water and no other source water, then the GH is solely due to the Equilibrium; if other source water is being mixed in, that may factor in. I already suggested not to continue Equilibrium, or not as much anyway, as you do not need the GH higher than 4 dGH for plants and the substrate tabs and liquid fertilizer if any will add as well. Technically the Eco-complete should not affect GH, but it might.



This is a complex topic but I will try to provide some guidance briefly to get you started. Different plant species have differing needs when it comes to light intensity, and then nutrient availability. This is why tanks with a mix of plant species having differing needs often fail, at least until you sort out what works under your light and then provide sufficient nutrients to balance. No mention is made of the light data here. CO2 will only benefit if the light is intense enough, and if all other required nutrients are sufficient for the plants. We need to know the lighting specs.

Hi,

Thank you again for your kindness and understanding. The information you have both provided is brilliant and a lot clearer than trying to assimilate information from other websites.

Firstly, my lighting is 8w 6500k led lighting bar which currently on for 6 hour per day. If this should need changing or increased/decreased I would be grateful for your thoughts.

Is there a different solution to Seachem Equilibrium I could be using to remineralize the water?

Currently I use:

10.6 g of Equilibrium
0.60 g of Acid buffer
1.25 g of Alkaline buffer

For treating 25 liters of RODI water.

I think I need to continue with RODI water as my tap water is around 300 GH and shows nitrates at over 200ppm. I live very near massive areas of farmland, and it is well known that a lot of chemicals farmers use get into the water table. Most people in my county use RO or RODI water in their aquariums, so I am told. Fluoride is also at the maximum UK permitted dose.

As far as I am concerned, any help, advice or mentorship you can give me will be acted upon and received gratefully.

Many thanks again for the continued support and advice.

Kindest regards,

Derek, UK.

 

[Colin_T]

If your tap water has 200ppm nitrate then you need to contact your water corporation and the health department because that stuff is toxic to people and animals.

If you have 200ppm nitrate then continue using R/O water for the fish and for drinking purposes. You do not want to drink water with any nitrites/ nitrates if you can help it. I think the maximum allowable nitrate in drinking water in the UK is 50ppm. Any more than that and the Water Corporation needs to fix it and make it safe for human consumption.

Nitrites/ nitrates are considered a carcinogen so drink R/O water.

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I use a Rift Lake water conditioner to increase hardness in water. It is designed to increase GH, KH & pH and make water suitable for African Rift Lake cichlids. For tetras and other software fishes you would use it at 1/4 dose to give you a GH of about 100ppm.

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The 8 watt 6500K LED light unit is probably not going to give you enough light, especially if you only have it on for 6 hours a day.

The 6500K (K is for Kelvin) rating is great and fine for plants.

8 watts is probably not bright enough but you can try leaving the lights on for 12 hours a day and see if the plants do better. You can have the lights on for up to 16 hours a day and the longer photoperiod (lighting time) can often help to make up for the lower wattage.

If the plants are still struggling with 16hours of light per day then you will need more wattage. I use to run 36 watts of lighting above my 2ft tanks, which were 2ft long x 10inches wide x 12 inches high (similar size to your tank). The 36 watts made the tank pretty bright and I had the light on for about 14 hours per day. The plants did really well.

If you have too much light you will get green algae all over the glass. If that happens reduce the photoperiod by a couple of hours and see how the algae goes. A small amount of green algae on the glass is fine but if you have to clean it off every day, there is too much light.

As plants grow they will require more light or longer photoperiods. So if you have the lights on for 12 hours a day and get green algae everywhere, once the plants have grown a bit you probably won't get as much green algae.

 

[Byron]

I concur with what Colin has posted, but would like to detail a couple things additionally.

On the light, I do not know much about LED; the five units I tried all went back, and I have stayed with what I know and what works in my situation, T8 fluorescent tubes (over most of the tanks) or CFL bulbs (over the two smallest). But I can offer a couple of basic comments concerning lighting, and the first is that duration does not make up for a lack of intensity.

Each species of plant on this planet requires a certain light intensity to drive photosynthesis; In gardens there are sun plants and shade plants, and these will not grow well or at all if the intensity they individually need is missing. There is also the spectrum, as red and blue light drive photosynthesis with red the most important of the two, and adding green improves the plants' response. A Kelvin between 5000K and 7000K works well, and in fact scientifically controlled studies have shown that 6500K is about ideal, so you are good for spectrum. The intensity of LED I cannot comment on. But the point I want to make is that if the intensity is not sufficient for "x" plant species, then having that light on longer is not going to help. It will inevitably cause algae, because algae is not as fussy as higher plants when it comes to light, intensity or spectrum.

With the above in mind, you need to ensure the plants in the aquarium have reasonably similar requirements respecting light intensity. In my tanks, I want low to moderate lighting (for the fish, another story) so the plants must be able to manage. I can grow swords like weeds, and floating plants too. Java Fern, Java Moss, crypts, Anubias tend to do well. But plants like Cabomba will last for a few weeks then begin to fall apart, due to insufficient light. So you need to decide what lighting is going to be it, and then select plants suited and provide nutrients in balance. And like lighting, nutrients also depend upon the plant species. Fast growing plants need brighter light and more nutrients, while slow growing plants can use less light intensity and proportionally less nutrients. Light should be the driving thing here, because you can fiddle with fertilizers but the light is what you have (unless you get different lighting, not what I am suggesting; with good spectrum light as here you should be able to grow some plants, we just need to pin down the right ones).

Duration depends upon nutrient availability. The intensity is set once you have the light. But plants can only photosynthesize if all 17 required nutrients are available sufficient to balance that light. Photosynthesis occurs at maximum level, and maximum level is determined by the light and nutrient balance. As soon as any individual factor is insufficient, photosynthesis will slow, and may even cease depending upon the factor. Keeping the lighting on past the point at which the nutrient/light balance is off, will only encourage algae. Algae is always ready to take advantage.

As an example, my tank lighting is on for eight hours each day, but only seven hours over the 70g tank. I worked back to this from a longer duration because of brush algae; at this duration brush algae is not increasing. But if I overdose liquid fertilizer, it will. Again, it is all about the balance. Even the additional daylight in the summer was causing algae to increase, until I blocked the windows (possible in a dedicated fish room). The increased intensity and duration of daylight was enough to trigger the algae because it upset the balance.

That took some detailing, but feel free to question anything. One other issue I want to mention is the GH/KH/pH business. GH is the source of the "hard" minerals, calcium and magnesium. These are macro nutrients, so they are important. But keeping in mind the above, slower growing plants will need less, so again your lighting is going to determine the mineral needs. But here we come to the fish; you need to know exactly what fish species you intend in this tank. If they are soft water, then keeping the GH/KH as low as possible is advisable. And every substance added to the water gets inside the fish. Some of these can kill the fish, but all of them do negatively impact the fish even if they "appear" OK. I discontinued Equilibrium on the advice of two biologists solely for this reason, the fish, and I got around the calcium/magnesium issue with substrate tabs for the larger swords and minimal liquid fertilizer for the upper plants. The increased spawning and longevity convinces me I was right to do this. My GH and KH is zero in all my tanks, as I have soft water species most of which are wild caught. The photos below show there are also thriving plants in these tanks, so it can be done. It is all driven by my lighting which is low to moderate for the good of these fish, and floating plants cover the surface in all my tanks.

CO2 is related; without sufficient light intensity, CO2 addition will not benefit, but again encourage algae. I would discontinue CO2 at least until the light is sorted out.