Hayleys New Cycle Log Pt 2
- Thread starter HayzH
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The nitrates being so high for both the 2nd and 3rd tank is a good indicator that they are processing nitrite, just not as quickly as you would like.
If I may make a small suggestion, you might want to drop your dose back to 50% of the regular amount until you actually hit double zeros. (Instead of aiming for 5ppm ammonia when you dose, only dose to get a 2.5ppm concentration.) This will give the N-bacs a chance to catch up a bit, while still continuing to tick over the A-bacs. If you do that, you should see double zeros in a day or so on Tank 3 from the look of it. I suspect that it would take closer to a week for Tank 2 to reach the double zeros at that dose, but it should get there fairly quickly.
From that point, start testing at 12 hours. Once you get a reliable double zero at 12 hours (at least 5 days) you would be fully cycled for no more than HALF of your full capacity in that tank. This should happen fairly quickly as well for Tank 3. You would then want to do a 100% water change before getting any fish (no more than 24 hours before hand) and only go with some of the hardier fish of your selection. Many fish that you can add later don't prefer a freshly cycled tank. Remember, there are a lot more things needed for a fully matured tank than just the filter bacs. Neon tetras for example fair much better after 6 months than they do in a freshly cycled tank. They are just too sensitive for the initial stocking. Rasboras, barbs and platies however are great options.
If I may make a small suggestion, you might want to drop your dose back to 50% of the regular amount until you actually hit double zeros. (Instead of aiming for 5ppm ammonia when you dose, only dose to get a 2.5ppm concentration.) This will give the N-bacs a chance to catch up a bit, while still continuing to tick over the A-bacs. If you do that, you should see double zeros in a day or so on Tank 3 from the look of it. I suspect that it would take closer to a week for Tank 2 to reach the double zeros at that dose, but it should get there fairly quickly.
From that point, start testing at 12 hours. Once you get a reliable double zero at 12 hours (at least 5 days) you would be fully cycled for no more than HALF of your full capacity in that tank. This should happen fairly quickly as well for Tank 3. You would then want to do a 100% water change before getting any fish (no more than 24 hours before hand) and only go with some of the hardier fish of your selection. Many fish that you can add later don't prefer a freshly cycled tank. Remember, there are a lot more things needed for a fully matured tank than just the filter bacs. Neon tetras for example fair much better after 6 months than they do in a freshly cycled tank. They are just too sensitive for the initial stocking. Rasboras, barbs and platies however are great options.
Did you gradually raise it back up or did you just jump right back up to full dose?
I'm sorry that no one else addressed that question. Normally, the practice is to drop the dose once you hit phase two (the nitrite spike). If you continue the same dose, the nitrite levels will go through the roof and take forever to come back down. Furthermore, if the nitrites are too high for too long you are actually encouraging the wrong bacteria. Nitrosomas which are the nitrite bacteria you are trying to cultivate prefer concentrations lower than 0.14ppm. Meanwhile, concentrations on the order of 14ppm are ideal for nitrobacter. The key element is to try to provide the environment that is ideal for the bacteria as best you can.
Once you hit double zeros, you can then start to slowly increase the dose back up and increase your testing frequency to 12 hours.
What fish are you planning to keep?
I'm sorry that no one else addressed that question. Normally, the practice is to drop the dose once you hit phase two (the nitrite spike). If you continue the same dose, the nitrite levels will go through the roof and take forever to come back down. Furthermore, if the nitrites are too high for too long you are actually encouraging the wrong bacteria. Nitrosomas which are the nitrite bacteria you are trying to cultivate prefer concentrations lower than 0.14ppm. Meanwhile, concentrations on the order of 14ppm are ideal for nitrobacter. The key element is to try to provide the environment that is ideal for the bacteria as best you can.
Once you hit double zeros, you can then start to slowly increase the dose back up and increase your testing frequency to 12 hours.
What fish are you planning to keep?
i went straight back up to 4ppm..as was directed.
Right so i now have the wrong bacteria growth...great 60 odd days down the pan.
Tank 2 is gonna be my "special" tank...with maybe Rams or something special.
Tank 3 is the hospital tank which will house some of the platies from Tank 1 until needed.
So you probably suggest a full W/C and start again. what ppm should i go to?
CezzaXV
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I think it's unlikely you have absolutely none of the right bacteria. The guide in the beginners resource centre never even mentions doing a half dose, if I remember correctly. There's so much missing from it, it's more like an introduction to cycling rather than a how-to. I honestly don't think I'd have made it to this point without asking lots of questions.
i went straight back up to 4ppm..as was directed.
Right so i now have the wrong bacteria growth...great 60 odd days down the pan.
Tank 2 is gonna be my "special" tank...with maybe Rams or something special.
Tank 3 is the hospital tank which will house some of the platies from Tank 1 until needed.
So you probably suggest a full W/C and start again. what ppm should i go to?
No worries. You have some of the right bacteria. Ultimately, I think you need to just relax a bit. This entire process is about learning. You are getting a crash course in proper biological filter care and growth. Ultimately, it is FAR better to be learning it now than after some crisis happens in your tank. Ultimately, all you are losing right now is a little time. No big deal, really. If you plan to keep fish over the next 10, 20, 30, etc. years, a few extra weeks at the beginning really isn't a lot. It will also ultimately help you keep healthier fish in the long run.
I would NOT do a full W/C and start over. Just dose at half the level and see what the results are.
Please tell me more about your tanks. What are their sizes, filters, etc?
*takes a chill pill*
ok Tank 1 got to 55 days...it was clearing ammonia in 12 hrs for a longtime before that. Nitrites bounced up and for a long time after then. it was then i decided to go ahead with fish.
Its a 66L Aqua One with fluval U2 and interpet 100W heater. Sand substrate, driftwood and Slate stones.
just had a mini cycle due to my filter failing..but i replaced the day after.
Tank 2 is at day 60 now. Its 70L Superfish with a Aqua international 200 with spraybar. It was second hand and came with all the mature media, sand substrate and ornamental bell. It has a heater but doesnt say a make on it. its been at a constant 30 deg.
ive buffered when the ph drops and i test every every morning at 9am (12 hrs post dose). I've took the sand into consideration. and i am dosing 3.6ml of Ammonia 9pm every night.
Tank 3 is at day 49 now. its 60L. It is also second hand, came with gravel substrate, fluval 2+ (old style with bubble spout)with all the mature media again.
i added a 100w Interpet heater.Again a constant 30 deg. This tank shot off in the beginning and then has started to go backwards again. The PH has crashed a few times, but not as bad as T2. Buffered up when crashed.
i dose this one 9pm as well with 2.4ml of Ammonia, and test 9am (12 hrs post dose). This one has only had 1 small water change since it started cycling.
hth
ok Tank 1 got to 55 days...it was clearing ammonia in 12 hrs for a longtime before that. Nitrites bounced up and for a long time after then. it was then i decided to go ahead with fish.
Its a 66L Aqua One with fluval U2 and interpet 100W heater. Sand substrate, driftwood and Slate stones.
just had a mini cycle due to my filter failing..but i replaced the day after.
Tank 2 is at day 60 now. Its 70L Superfish with a Aqua international 200 with spraybar. It was second hand and came with all the mature media, sand substrate and ornamental bell. It has a heater but doesnt say a make on it. its been at a constant 30 deg.
ive buffered when the ph drops and i test every every morning at 9am (12 hrs post dose). I've took the sand into consideration. and i am dosing 3.6ml of Ammonia 9pm every night.
Tank 3 is at day 49 now. its 60L. It is also second hand, came with gravel substrate, fluval 2+ (old style with bubble spout)with all the mature media again.
i added a 100w Interpet heater.Again a constant 30 deg. This tank shot off in the beginning and then has started to go backwards again. The PH has crashed a few times, but not as bad as T2. Buffered up when crashed.
i dose this one 9pm as well with 2.4ml of Ammonia, and test 9am (12 hrs post dose). This one has only had 1 small water change since it started cycling.
hth
THe original thread is a bit old now, but still will get the job done. The nitrite concentrations I was quoting for nitrobacter vs. nitrosomas came from Dr. Tim Havonec in about 2008 or 2009 (one of the only folks actually studying this). He mentioned this in reference to his bacteria in a bottle product (which I do not recommend). I believe what he says regarding the concentrations for optimal growth, but am highly skeptical about being able to bottle and sell the bacteria.
Ok. For the mature media... How long was it sitting empty before you got it with the mature media? Was the media kept wet the entire time, or was it allowed to dry out?
A bacteria colony dies back at a rate of about 12% per 24 hours. If they were empty for more than a few days, chances are that you didn't have "mature" media, but instead "old" media. There is a very big difference. In fact, given the evidence of your cycle, I would say that it is pretty much assured that your "mature" media wasn't actually viable by the time you got it. Truly "mature" media will "instantly" cycle a new tank.
i think to "rebuild" = requires a cycled tank, which has been running over 6 months old and counting = becomes "mature" media
eh??
There is no harm in doing so that I am aware of. But, that does explain why you aren't getting the results you expected with "mature" media.
What is the type of media you have: filter floss, ceramics, biowheel, etc.?
In about two weeks, once the mini-cycle has been dealt with in tank 1, I would steal a pinch or two of media from there and seed the other filters with it. You should be coming to a close soon.
BTW, a word of advice regarding tank 2 - your "show" tank. I would start that tank off with different fish than you plan to keep in there long term. Something a little hardier than rams to start with. As I mentioned before, newly cycled tanks are still very immature and require several months of keeping FISH in them before they are fully matured. Certain fish, like rams, are highly sensitive to new tanks (even with working biofilters) and will die mysterious deaths as a result. I would start by putting some platies in there just for a few months to allow the entire ecosystem to mature a bit before I even think about rams in there. Rams can be quite tricky, especially for the new keeper. You will want some experience with a hardier fish first, and allow that hardier fish to help mature that tank for you. You can always move the platies to either tank 1 or 3 in six months when the tank is ready to go. (I would also do an extremely thorough vacuuming of the substrate after removing the platies before I add the rams. There would be no reason to not just do a complete water change while vacuuming the substrate to remove all the built up detritus. Then refill with fresh water, wait about 12 hours before you add in the rams after a nice slow acclimatization period. Rams are gorgeous fish, but they are a bit finicky. Take your time to make sure you do it right.
What is the type of media you have: filter floss, ceramics, biowheel, etc.?
In about two weeks, once the mini-cycle has been dealt with in tank 1, I would steal a pinch or two of media from there and seed the other filters with it. You should be coming to a close soon.
BTW, a word of advice regarding tank 2 - your "show" tank. I would start that tank off with different fish than you plan to keep in there long term. Something a little hardier than rams to start with. As I mentioned before, newly cycled tanks are still very immature and require several months of keeping FISH in them before they are fully matured. Certain fish, like rams, are highly sensitive to new tanks (even with working biofilters) and will die mysterious deaths as a result. I would start by putting some platies in there just for a few months to allow the entire ecosystem to mature a bit before I even think about rams in there. Rams can be quite tricky, especially for the new keeper. You will want some experience with a hardier fish first, and allow that hardier fish to help mature that tank for you. You can always move the platies to either tank 1 or 3 in six months when the tank is ready to go. (I would also do an extremely thorough vacuuming of the substrate after removing the platies before I add the rams. There would be no reason to not just do a complete water change while vacuuming the substrate to remove all the built up detritus. Then refill with fresh water, wait about 12 hours before you add in the rams after a nice slow acclimatization period. Rams are gorgeous fish, but they are a bit finicky. Take your time to make sure you do it right.
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