Have they discovered where bacteria magically appear from yet?

[Colin_T]

Some filter cartridges/ pads have Zeolite and other things in them that can stop the filter bacteria from developing. Make sure any filter pads you have don't have anything weird in them. Sponge is the best filter media.

It's probably a good idea to test the tap water for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate too, just to make sure it doesn't contain any.

------------------

We used to charge $1.00 per test for people coming in to get water tested. It covered the cost of the test kits. If someone bought a tank set up from us, we gave them free water testing for the first month to get them through the cycle. We got them to bring a glass of tank water in 2 or 3 times a week for this. After the tank was cycled we charged them for the testing. Or if they were a regular customer and spent money, we might give them free testing before they buy any new fish.

If you are going to charge for water testing, have signs up saying "We now charge x amount for water testing. This is to cover the cost of the test kits." You can also have a list of what you test.
eg: ammonia test is $1.00
nitrite test is $1.00
GH test is $1.00

The pH test we didn't charge for because the stuff we used (Bromothymol Blue) only cost about a dollar and we got several hundred tests out of it. But the other kits cost a lot more and you get less tests per kit so it's a good idea to charge.

With a few of the test kits, you can fill the phial up half way to the line instead of right up to the line, and use half the reagents. We did this with pH in particular. The instructions say use 6 drops in 10ml of water. We used 1/3 of that water and a couple of drops to get the same results. Unfortunately you can't do this with KH or GH, and some nitrate test kits need a spoon of powder and reagents 1 & 2 so it doesn't work for them.

 

[Bamf Comics]

I'm trying Aquatops out since they appear to be about as basic as you can get and on the low end of the pricing spectrum from what I've seen currently.

Hang On Power Filters

Elevate your aquarium's water quality with Aquatop Hang-On Power Filters. Discover versatile filtration systems that provide multi-stage filtration for a cleaner and healthier aquatic habitat.

www.aquatop.com

They don't offer extensions directly so I had to special order additional extensions for each filter to hopefully get them pulling from low enough down to be happy but the cartridges appear to be just basic floss with carbon designs that should be easy to pressure rinse and reuse for long periods of time, how long to be determined. Marineland cartridges would start falling apart in as little as 6 months.

Strong pumps so they've maintained water flow to the filters while doing 50% water changes. Stupid looking surface skimmer on the larger models can be left off since we don't want pellets or duckweed getting skimmed away. Looks like just a simple basic aquarium vacuum cleaner that hopefully works better at rounding up detritus from the bottoms of the bare bottom tanks the filter sponges leave laying there. Trying to get to the point that I'm only fiddling with tanks once a week for the 50% water changes.

A lot of the tests we used to do for wells were basically the same tests we do for aquariums. I kept my AP test kits for years after closing the store for testing well water. I wish I had them now. So far I'm only up to 4 test tubes to work with. I could use 20 more and eventually I'll buy a set of extras.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

One has two options to answer the original Q, in those thread. One can believe the bacteria are delivered by Gandolf or one can read the information below.

There are two sources for the bacteria.The most common one is from your tap water. I can show you research papers indicating how this happens if you want. Basically, the wtaer treatment facilities do not elimijate all the nitrifying bacteria from the system/ It tends to grow downstream before it reachers out home.

Public water supplu systems end aone/s property line. AFter that they are private. There are ususally areas in the private system whch are not actively used and these are where the bateria may colonize some.

Reseach also show that chlorine takes about 24 hours to penentrate the bio-film where the bacteria live. So it may not last long enough down stream to wipe all of them out. Chloramine on the other hand doesn't kill them if there is any level of ammonia present. Instead it just puts them to sleep. The chloramine breaks down and the bacteria wake up. Again, I can show you the research on this.

While is is normally said that the bacteria are not free swimming in the water. This is actually not quite true. Because the bacteria (Archaea) do not form spores, they have to have ways to survive hard times over mullions of years or they would have long been gone. Some small percent of them are actually free swimming. But this is not because theyare processing a lot of ammonia and nitrite, but rather because their being motile means when conditions turn bad, they can move to find better places to colonize.

In addition, the bacteria are able to go into to a state of dormancy when what they need to thrive disappears. This also explains whow they can survive in a bottle for 6 month at room te,perature or about a year refrigerated. If what they need returned they wak up and get back to work at close to or at full strength. How sell they do depends on their condition when they go dormant.

Next, the bacteria are microscopic. What it take in terms of moisture tor prevent them from drying put nd dying is an iingantesimal amout of moisture. Humididty in the air is enough. Combine this with their microscopic size and bacteria cells are floating around in the air. It only takes one single cell to start a colony. I can also show you papers where bacterial cells in strred soil have been discoverd to remain be viable after decades.

I stopped cycling tanks may years ago, Instead I cycle filters in a bio-far, This is because of two things. Every summer U set up 5-8 tanks basically outside (in a terraces where 3 walls ar screens). I also beed fish which I sell in the vendor room at weekend fish events. I bring glass tanks, and cycled filters I cucled for them.

I use a combination of a small bottle of Dr. Tim's One and Only combined with the muck I squeeze out the foam in my established filters. I then go to work cycling the filters further so I can just drop them into newly set up tanks and be instantly cycled to handle a full fish load. It takes me 10-12 days to complete the process unless I mess up something.

So, as we can see, there are multiple ways to obtain the initial microorganisms to start the cycle in a tank.

Finally. ammonia/ammonium is easy to find and to add to a tank, nitrite is not. What can be found are the bacteria than oxidize nitrite. When we can sedd both types of bacteria at the start, they are read and waiting for the ammonia ones to make the nitrite. But in a cycle without seeding it is a serial process first the ammonia attracts those bacteria and when they start to make nitrite, the next group starts to colonize.

Whether the bacteria is farmed, seeded from cycled media or it developed via a full fishless cycle in a tank, there will be a ba;ance between the numbers of ammonia and nitrite oxidizers. This means that whatever amount of ammonia can be processed into nitrate, there will be sufficient number to process that nitrite as it is made.

Through any of these processes we have no idea how many oifwhich bacteria we have in a tank nor where trhey are concentrated. All we can do is to test for ammonia and nitrite which will tell us weither we have all we need or not to hit a target level. That kevek is akways a function of the ammonia levels being made available.

Finally, over the last 25 years what is known to be going on regarding cycle has changed a lot. First, cam the discover of what was assumed to be there was not, The cam the discover of the Nortospira as being the ones to handl;e Nitrite in tanks. After than it was discovered that there are ammonia oxidizing Archaea (another ancient microoganism). Perhaps the most amazing discovery was that some strains of Nitrospira were able to process ammonia straight through to nitrate.

This is also why the scientific method works so well. It always questions what is known and is not only prepared to change what is thought to be the case and thus to revise thinking, but it is expected to do this over time. Better tools and methods and curiosity drive this engine.

 

[Alice B]

I use fritzzyme 7 from fritz industries to speed up cycling. Maintained at correct temps and used before it expires it works better than most. If you have a store, you can buy from them. Tell them Everything Fishy sent you

 

[Bamf Comics]

Have you done any head to head direct comparisons of this Fritzme to tanks without it or other products? I'm at the point now that I keep expecting to reach the finish line any day now and not actually need anything myself but I'm a big fan of confirming products functionality before selling them to newbies. We've done lots of head to heads over the years including silly sounding one's like how long does it take "Cycle to get ammonia out of itself?"

"I use a combination of a small bottle of Dr. Tim's One and Only combined with the muck I squeeze out the foam in my established filters."
I've currently lost faith in Dr Tim's any product based on this rounds results but I hope to reestablish some soon. If Dr Tim's new product did anything, a capful should have had results showing by now in the first 10 to 12 tanks. One of the knocks on Cycle was how it arrived containing ammonia which we supposed was from the dead nitrobacter. The funny part was the nitrate level was so astronomical I had to dilute it a ridiculous amount of times just to get the results back down into testable ranges and use math to calculate how high it was. Basically, the presumption was that if you use enough of the product, the product itself would supply the results you were testing for to prove the product was actually working. At least it seems they've replaced nitrobacter with "friendly" in the description now.

Any links to published data on the topics would be appreciated. I've got between 2.5 and 7 hours to kill before the UPS trucks gets the two boxes of filters here. I also added more fish food for shelf stocking and grabbed 2.2 pounders of Hikari's algae wafers and carnivore tabs so when the cycles finish and I start getting bottom dwelling types, they'll have some groceries waiting since there's no algae yet.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

I have been using Dr. Time's for years. I even corresponded some with him by email many years ago. My best guess is you either failed to use it properly or else it was mishandled before it arrived to you. Freezing will kill the bacteria and archaea in the bottle (Dr. Tim now includes Ammonia Oxidizing Archaea in his product). If it is allowed to get too hot, the same will happen. Depending on the date on the bottle, it could have been old which makes it less effective.

There is actually some peer reviewed, published research involving Hagen's Cyle which contains the same Nitrobacter as the Fritz products.

Hovanec TA, Taylor LT, Blakis A, Delong EF 1998.
Nitrospira-Like Bacteria Associated with Nitrite Oxidation in Freshwater Aquaria. Appl Environ Microbiol 64:.
https://doi.org/10.1128/AEM.64.1.258-264.1998

ABSTRACT​

Oxidation of nitrite to nitrate in aquaria is typically attributed to bacteria belonging to the genus Nitrobacter which are members of the α subdivision of the class Proteobacteria. In order to identify bacteria responsible for nitrite oxidation in aquaria, clone libraries of rRNA genes were developed from biofilms of several freshwater aquaria. Analysis of the rDNA libraries, along with results from denaturing gradient gel electrophoresis (DGGE) on frequently sampled biofilms, indicated the presence of putative nitrite-oxidizing bacteria closely related to other members of the genus Nitrospira. Nucleic acid hybridization experiments with rRNA from biofilms of freshwater aquaria demonstrated thatNitrospira-like rRNA comprised nearly 5% of the rRNA extracted from the biofilms during the establishment of nitrification. Nitrite-oxidizing bacteria belonging to the α subdivision of the class Proteobacteria (e.g., Nitrobacter spp.) were not detected in these samples. Aquaria which received a commercial preparation containing Nitrobacter species did not show evidence of Nitrobacter growth and development but did develop substantial populations of Nitrospira-like species. Time series analysis of rDNA phylotypes on aquaria biofilms by DGGE, combined with nitrite and nitrate analysis, showed a correspondence between the appearance of Nitrospira-like bacterial ribosomal DNA and the initiation of nitrite oxidation. In total, the data suggest that Nitrobacter winogradskyi and close relatives were not the dominant nitrite-oxidizing bacteria in freshwater aquaria. Instead, nitrite oxidation in freshwater aquaria appeared to be mediated by bacteria closely related to Nitrospira moscoviensis and Nitrospira marina.

(i) Bacterial additive test.​

Six all-glass aquaria were established with an airlift undergravel filtration system (model KF720; Neptune Products, Moorpark, Calif.) in a temperature-controlled laboratory (mean air temperature, 26.0 ± 1.5°C). The aquaria were covered with glass lids but were not illuminated other than by room ceiling lights which were on a 14- and 10-h light and dark cycle, respectively. A 6.8-kg amount of natural aquarium gravel (Kaytee Products, Irwindale, Calif.) was placed on top of the filtration plate. A 30-liter volume of city tap water, passed through activated carbon, was added to each aquarium. Filtered air was supplied to each aquarium from a common air source. Six fish (Danio aequipinnatus) were placed in each aquarium and fed 0.5 g of fish feed (Aquarian; Kal Kan Foods, Vernon, Calif.) daily over two feedings. Three of the aquaria (the treatment group) were each given doses of 8 ml of bacterial additive (Cycle; Rolf C. Hagen Inc., Mansfield, Mass.) on the first day and once every 7 days afterwards for an additional 3 weeks. The other three aquaria were the control group and did not receive an additive.

This is very rare to see. Why waste one's money and time researching the bavcterial products off everybody else when your original reseach shows that they do not contain Nitrospira since you have gotten a patent on them and nobody besides Marineland can use them. When Marineland was acquired-->

In the aquarium business, Spectrum owns Tetra, Whisper, Marineland, Perfecto, Jungle, Instant Ocean, Visi-Therm, and other product lines.

When Spectrums Brands acquired Marineland, tthey transferred the production/responsibility for it to Tetra who makes and sells Safe Start and Safe Start Plus.

I have used One and On over the years to seed my bio-farm when I have to start it up. I have never had an issue. It has always worked just fine.

 

[Alice B]

Have you done any head to head direct comparisons of this Fritzme to tanks without it or other products? I'm at the point now that I keep expecting to reach the finish line any day now and not actually need anything myself but I'm a big fan of confirming products functionality before selling them to newbies. We've done lots of head to heads over the years including silly sounding one's like how long does it take "Cycle to get ammonia out of itself?"

"I use a combination of a small bottle of Dr. Tim's One and Only combined with the muck I squeeze out the foam in my established filters."
I've currently lost faith in Dr Tim's any product based on this rounds results but I hope to reestablish some soon. If Dr Tim's new product did anything, a capful should have had results showing by now in the first 10 to 12 tanks. One of the knocks on Cycle was how it arrived containing ammonia which we supposed was from the dead nitrobacter. The funny part was the nitrate level was so astronomical I had to dilute it a ridiculous amount of times just to get the results back down into testable ranges and use math to calculate how high it was. Basically, the presumption was that if you use enough of the product, the product itself would supply the results you were testing for to prove the product was actually working. At least it seems they've replaced nitrobacter with "friendly" in the description now.

Any links to published data on the topics would be appreciated. I've got between 2.5 and 7 hours to kill before the UPS trucks gets the two boxes of filters here. I also added more fish food for shelf stocking and grabbed 2.2 pounders of Hikari's algae wafers and carnivore tabs so when the cycles finish and I start getting bottom dwelling types, they'll have some groceries waiting since there's no algae yet.

Did comparisons years ago. Its good enough that someone at marineland ordered Turbo from me in january 2004. I've also tested a heartleaf philodendron, pot, dirt and all (in a nylon stocking for mess control), in a fishless cycle adding ammonia daily. It worked, but i had to stop adding ammonia to get it to finish. I do not use heterotrophic bacteria. I either use fritz or a cultured sponge filter. I've used their saltwater bacteria as well. Used to keep reefs. I get systems started and do not add any bacteria after, i seed sponge filters in the established tank for the rest

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Somehow I highly doubt that either Dr. Hovanec nor Aquariua Inc. lost their bacteria cultures.

Aquaria Inc. Moorpark. CA. Aquaria Inc. is the parent company of Marineland Aquarium Products (consumer products),

In 2004 Dr Hovanec was still the Chief Scientist and Aquaria Inc, in CA. He and they still both comntrolled the Nirtrospira patents which is what is still in their cycling products and nobody elses. Dr, H, and Aquaria Inc. parted ways in 2007 when Spectrum Brands bought Aquarianc. It seems more likely to me that what they might have bought from you, or anybody else, was for research as it could not have legally contained Nitrospira. Maybe they wanted to be sure their oatent had not been violated? See the dates of the patents at the bottom of the list below. They owned the right to use use Nitrospira years before your report of selling to them. There is no way what oyu sold could restart their line as it did not contain the patented Nitrospira bacteria. (I may be wrong here, but I do not think I am.)

Patents:
13 U.S. Patent No. 7,544,501. Issued June 6, 2009. Nitrite-Oxidizing Bacteria and Methods
of Using and Detecting the same.
12 U.S. Patent No. 7,482,151. Issued Jan. 27, 2009. Method for Using Ammonia Oxidizing
Bacteria.
11 U.S. Patent No. 7,270,957. Issued Sept. 18, 2007. Method for Detecting Ammonia
Oxidizing Bacteria.
10 U.S. Patent No. 7,267,816. Issued Sept. 11, 2007. Ammonia Oxidizing Bacteria.
9 Commonwealth of Australia Patent No. 2003272297. Issued 31 August 2006. Ammonia-
oxidizing bacteria and methods of using and detecting the same.
8 Commonwealth of Australia Patent No. 2001263305. Issued 5 July 2006. Ammonia-
oxidizing bacteria.
7 Mexico Patent No. 238,832. Issued 21 July 2006. Freshwater nitrite bacteria.
6 Mexico Patent No. 233,120. Issued 19 December 2005. Ammonia oxidizing bacteria.
5 European Patent No. EP 1 282 688. Issued March 16, 2005. Ammonia oxidizing bacteria.
4 Commonwealth of Australia Patent No. 750,945. Issued 21 November 2002. Bacterial
nitrite oxidizer and method of use thereof.
3 U.S. Patent No. 6,268,154. Issued July 31, 2001. Method for Detecting Bacterial Nitrite
Oxidizer.
2 U.S. Patent No. 6,265,206. Issued July 24, 2001. Method of Using Bacterial Nitrite
Oxidizer.
1 U.S. Patent No. 6,207,440. Issued March 21, 2001. Bacterial Nitrite Oxidizer.
Other U.S. and foreign patents pending

 

[Bamf Comics]

"I have been using Dr. Time's for years. I even corresponded some with him by email many years ago. My best guess is you either failed to use it properly or else it was mishandled before it arrived to you. Freezing will kill the bacteria and archaea in the bottle (Dr. Tim now includes Ammonia Oxidizing Archaea in his product). If it is allowed to get too hot, the same will happen. Depending on the date on the bottle, it could have been old which makes it less effective."

The bottle date was not expired, stored in the fridge once it arrived. What happened to it prior to someone on Amazon selling and shipping it to me I can't say. I know the version in 2002 I had to drive to a B&M pet store to buy since it had to be kept refrigerated. I trust Dr Tim enough to give it another shot but I can't see where the first bottle did anything at all unless there was a complication from the water conditioner preventing it. I've had the original product cycle tanks out in about a week from scratch in tests and tanks with dosage of nitobacter products take months. I miss all the old sites we had all these discussions on back in the late 90's when message boards were just starting up.

I'm killing time so I gave a rack of tanks 50% water changes just now. The oscars are messy and the four 20's on the top row are the most recent tanks set up. They'll be getting Aquatop PF-6's added this afternoon. (175 GPH advertised flow rate) I figure I'll dose the two angel tanks afterwards with a bottle of Dr Tims and leave the two others alone and see who finishes first. Whoever finishes first can have HOB bio inserts swapped with whoever is dragging their feet. I've got 3 gold sevrums and a group of pink kissers I want to combine into the 20's to free up the 10's for new fish and the kissers and sevrums to have more room. The two 20's that aren't angels have 4 geophagus in one and 5 oscars in the other. Everyone's small for now but growing.

"Did comparisons years ago. Its good enough that when marineland lost their culture in january 2004 they ordered turbo from me. I've also tested a heartleaf philodendron, pot, dirt and all (in a nylon stocking for mess control), in a fishless cycle adding ammonia daily. It worked, but i had to stop adding ammonia to get it to finish. I do not use heterotrophic bacteria. I either use fritz or a cultured sponge filter. I've used their saltwater bacteria as well. Used to keep reefs. I get systems started and do not add any bacteria after, i seed sponge filters in the established tank for the rest"
I'll get bored sometime, get a bottle and set a couple test tanks up to see what happens. The most I want from bacterial products is one time treatment to jump start new hobbyists. I'm not a believer that it's needed more than that. Experienced hobbyists with established tanks to raid from shouldn't need it at all. I love testing stuff though so it sounds like another fun one to try out.

 

[Bamf Comics]

Good stuff, thanks for all the tech talk. I've got to recycle my fish knowledge as well.

I just got a call from the Hikari rep after about 2 months and after a long talk, it appears I may be using waaay too much of their dechlor product. He said it shouldn't have mattered since it converts ammonia into ammonium and provides just enough salt to make nitrite not a problem. He also said they have a Vibra Bites baby size in 2.2 pound that may work for a store use size to feed the bettas and to just go with the koi products in mini size and 4.4 pound bags for the goldfish for store use sizes. Apparently there wasn't enough interest in their betta food to keep offering it in 2 pound sizes. He's sending me a store starter kit with signage and samples and he said he'd call back once he figures out how tiny the dosage of that Hikari Cloram-X (P) Powder 5 lb to use it as a simple dechlorinator for 10 gallons treated. He also said I could use distilled or RO and a gallon jug to make my own liquid version if I wanted. I'm a crystal guy myself. Loved the 5 pound tubs of Start Right. This sounds stupid cheap though and I do love large water changes and lots of them so stupid cheap is good.

​

 

[Alice B]

Somehow I highly doubt that either Dr. Hovanec nor Aquariua Inc. lost their bacteria cultures.



In 2004 Dr Hovanec was still the Chief Scientist and Aquaria Inc, in CA. He and they still both comntrolled the Nirtrospira patents which is what is still in their cycling products and nobody elses. Dr, H, and Aquaria Inc. parted ways in 2007 when Spectrum Brands bought Aquarianc. It seems more likely to me that what they might have bought from you, or anybody else, was for research as it could not have legally contained Nitrospira. Maybe they wanted to be sure their oatent had not been violated? See the dates of the patents at the bottom of the list below. They owned the right to use use Nitrospira years before your report of selling to them. There is no way what oyu sold could restart their line as it did not contain the patented Nitrospira bacteria. (I may be wrong here, but I do not think I am.)

I got an order for Fritz Turbo from an individual, and setting up dropship I input the address and came up with Marineland's campus. I don't know what they did with it, but they bought it, and it was while I was in New Mexico which puts it around December 2003 or January 2004. That computer is long dead, the name was probably a secretary.

 

[Bamf Comics]

Sounds like someone like me that just wanted to try some more than Marineland itself restarting their entire bacteria business based on a competitor's product. I've sold and shipped comics to people at publishers the comics were produced from or other business names an employee wants to have packages arrive at instead of being left at their home subject to porch pirates while someone was at work. My simple method is two tanks, two identical everything. One gets your product, one doesn't. See what happens first hand. Seeing is believing. believing makes the selling easier. Technically I can do more than two tanks at a time and use other products in the same test.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

OK- but then why did you say that Marineland lost their culture when you did not know this was actually the case?

That staement is what made me respond above. I am a bit biased here. But, Dr. Hovanec is a well respected scientist and tank related bacteria and products has been central in his life/business for a very long time. While it is not impossible, I would very much be surprised if a scientist of his caliber and reputation lost one of his most important strains of bacteria.

I have read all three of his papers on the bacteria, I have read his patent application for the Nitrospira. One thing many people fail to acknowledge is that his name is not the only one on the 3 papers. In fact, on one paper Dr. H. was not the main contact.

Burrell PC, Phalen CM, Hovanec TA.2001.
Identification of Bacteria Responsible for Ammonia Oxidation in Freshwater Aquaria.
Appl Environ Microbiol 67:.
https://doi.org/10.1128/AEM.67.12.5791-5800.2001

Hovanec TA, Taylor LT, Blakis A, Delong EF1998.
Nitrospira-Like Bacteria Associated with Nitrite Oxidation in Freshwater Aquaria.
Appl Environ Microbiol64:.
https://doi.org/10.1128/AEM.64.1.258-264.1998

Hovanec, T.A. and DeLong, E.F., 1997.
Comparative analysis of nitrifying bacteria associated with freshwater and marine aquaria.
Oceanographic Literature Review, 2(44), p.144.
https://journals.asm.org/doi/abs/10.1128/aem.62.8.2888-2896.1996

 

[Bamf Comics]

Call back from the Hikari rep just now. Apparently I was double strength dosing their dechlor product. Roughly 1/4 teaspoon does 10 gallons. I was using the half so basically I can reduce my usage cutting my costs in half. He also said it's the only product with FDA approval unlike other dechlors on the market.

He also let slip some gossip on Omega which it can be taken with a grain of salt since it's coming from a competitor but it sounds like Omega had a deal with Alaska so that after the fillets and such were cut off, they were using the leftovers to produce their food so it would still be labelled "whole salmon" or such but was actually whole salmon missing the fillets or most of the meat in other words. Sounds barely one step up from the by product game where animal by products are used to produce other foods.

 

[GaryE]

I have heard so much bad mouthing of competition in the fish, dog and cat food business that I have become very skeptical. I'm also very skeptical of ingredients claims for a lot of them too. I'm just all around skeptical!

Too many people lie when there's a buck to be made.