Frustrating advice for newcomers to the fish world

[Gavin MaGrath]

no

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It did for marine tanks and Rift Lake cichlid tanks but that was due to the high pH of the water in these types of tanks. The pH being 8.5 for marine and 7.6-9.0 for the Rift Lake tanks. The high pH caused ammonia to be very toxic to fish and other aquatic organisms, and we did fishless cycles on these tanks so the fish didn't die.

I did write a separate response regarding this that the caveat is if you keep fish requiring more extreme conditions. You're 100% correct. You have to get the water correct for those. Even so, if ammonia is kept low, it's a quicker cycle. Marine is beyond my scope.

 

[foxgirl158]

As a newer member I think some of the frustration lies in the delivery of advice. Users join and ask for advice from other, more experienced hobbyists. And while this experience is valued and sought after, I've read a few threads where advice comes off as a soapbox lecture from a self proclaimed "expert". (I quote expert because unless one has the appropriate degrees, it's advice based on one's experience.) This talking down to and accusatory delivery in turn seems to put the OP on the defense and the thread goes downhill from there. No good comes from that and people aren't as receptive to suggestions. Lots of questions come from true newbies and that requires a degree of understanding from those that want to help. It should never delve into shaming. Delivery should come from "in my experience" or "in my opinion".
I've received some great advice on here and value the opinions of those more experienced. I find most all here willing and knowledgeable and I appreciate the desire to share. That said, if advice were to be delivered in a shameful or degrading manner, I'm likely ignoring it.

I definitely agree with you there. I asked a question about what was wrong with my goldfish, and then people started bashing me about my tank size. I do realize that comet goldfish need a lot more room, but I have fancies which was clearly stated in my post, and so the tank size I have is fine. All I wanted was advice on how to help my sick fish, and instead I got lectured about how the fish was probably sick because the tank was "too small". My parameters were fine and everything as well, but instead of trying to help me figure out what was wrong, someone decided to yell at me about how it was "my fault"

 

[Back in the fold]

I definitely agree with you there. I asked a question about what was wrong with my goldfish, and then people started bashing me about my tank size. I do realize that comet goldfish need a lot more room, but I have fancies which was clearly stated in my post, and so the tank size I have is fine. All I wanted was advice on how to help my sick fish, and instead I got lectured about how the fish was probably sick because the tank was "too small". My parameters were fine and everything as well, but instead of trying to help me figure out what was wrong, someone decided to yell at me about how it was "my fault"

@foxgirl158 I have seen that way too many times on this forum and I do a slow burn every time. We all have what we have and here's a news flash. That's OK ! Everybody who goes to the time and effort of keeping whatever setup they have is doing the best they can and probably will get something better when household funds or space allow. I started out with too many guppies in a gallon jar 55 years ago. I found things out in time and long before Internet "experts" schooled me. So keep your Betta in a quart jar and your Goldfish in a two gallon bowl. Do your water changes, feed sparingly and all will be well.
Now you can all gang up on me but I have my work pants and steel toed boots on so make it count.

 

[noobfish]

@foxgirl158 I have seen that way too many times on this forum and I do a slow burn every time. We all have what we have and here's a news flash. That's OK ! Everybody who goes to the time and effort of keeping whatever setup they have is doing the best they can and probably will get something better when household funds or space allow. I started out with too many guppies in a gallon jar 55 years ago. I found things out in time and long before Internet "experts" schooled me. So keep your Betta in a quart jar and your Goldfish in a two gallon bowl. Do your water changes, feed sparingly and all will be well.
Now you can all gang up on me but I have my work pants and steel toed boots on so make it count.

Part of the issue is that members like to pontificate about ideal conditions for each species, but real life isn't ideal. Knowing what space and tankmates a species should have is something I/we should all try to educate ourselves on when considering a purchase, but many new members find themselves with fish in less than ideal tanks prior to knowing better. I have been guilty of this and would be willing to bet most everyone here has. Even the most seasoned fish keepers with decades of experience started in the same place, though some seem to forget that. While we all should strive to give our fish the best we can, educate ourselves, and research prior to getting into bad situations, no one here can say that their fish are kept in the most ideal conditions meant for health and well being. We keep fish in glass boxes, no fish's ideal conditions. If we all cared for the absolute perfect conditions for our fish then we wouldn't keep fish. We would boycott the industry and this forum wouldn't exist. Hard truths. But we do keep fish and its great to have a place to ask others for help and advice.
Remember... if people didn't care, they wouldn't be here asking!

 

[foxgirl158]

@foxgirl158 I have seen that way too many times on this forum and I do a slow burn every time. We all have what we have and here's a news flash. That's OK ! Everybody who goes to the time and effort of keeping whatever setup they have is doing the best they can and probably will get something better when household funds or space allow. I started out with too many guppies in a gallon jar 55 years ago. I found things out in time and long before Internet "experts" schooled me. So keep your Betta in a quart jar and your Goldfish in a two gallon bowl. Do your water changes, feed sparingly and all will be well.
Now you can all gang up on me but I have my work pants and steel toed boots on so make it count.

Part of the issue is that members like to pontificate about ideal conditions for each species, but real life isn't ideal. Knowing what space and tankmates a species should have is something I/we should all try to educate ourselves on when considering a purchase, but many new members find themselves with fish in less than ideal tanks prior to knowing better. I have been guilty of this and would be willing to bet most everyone here has. Even the most seasoned fish keepers with decades of experience started in the same place, though some seem to forget that. While we all should strive to give our fish the best we can, educate ourselves, and research prior to getting into bad situations, no one here can say that their fish are kept in the most ideal conditions meant for health and well being. We keep fish in glass boxes, no fish's ideal conditions. If we all cared for the absolute perfect conditions for our fish then we wouldn't keep fish. We would boycott the industry and this forum wouldn't exist. Hard truths. But we do keep fish and its great to have a place to ask others for help and advice.
Remember... if people didn't care, they wouldn't be here asking!

Exactly! Both of you are absolutely correct. If I didn't care for my fish, I would have let them freeze in the outdoor trough they were in instead of buying them the biggest indoor tank I could with my budget. Everyone here is doing the best they can for their fish, and some people don't understand that apparently.
(Edited to clarify that my mom put them in the dirty outdoor trough in the first place, not me)

 

[Naughts]

The posters who get too judgemental are often those who have recently kept fish in less than adequate conditions themselves. I saw someone berating a poster for keeping a betta in a community tank yet they had posted a photo of their betta with neon tetra just a few months earlier.
They are sanctimonious because they are angry at themselves but don't have the knowledge/ confidence to provide a reasoned view or admit they made a mistake. They usually calm down eventually!

 

[itiwhetu]

You are correct. 100%. If you want to fix your water, do water changes approproate to your set up. I guarantee that 50% water changes and "overfeeding" fish since that they ate healthy will eliminate 75% or more of peoples issues. I don't even test my water. What's the point (outside of setting parameters for a very few species) the change fixes your problem. I just wrote a post that I've never cycled a tank without putting fish in right away, in 4 decades and never lost an original fish due to water conditions. Perhaps because putting fish in pure water is what they want, lol. Marketing has freaked people out.

I was shown how to keep fish by a Professor of Zoology, I have never used Dechlorinator, he taught me to plant the tanks, keep them acid, and only change 25% of the water at a time. I have never had a problem doing this. I also never touch the substrate and always use a substrate that water can pass through ( Fine gravel ). I cycle my tanks by filling them with plants and waiting for around 10 days.

 

[Back in the fold]

@Gavin MaGrath and @itiwhetu you guys know the old methods. This aquarium hobby is not difficult at all. Many old timers know exactly what you are talking about. Fish are very adaptable and good clean water is what they really need. The water in their native habitats is getting bad thanks to the encroachment of civilization. Go look in a creek or river near your own home and see for yourself.

 

[noobfish]

The posters who get too judgemental are often those who have recently kept fish in less than adequate conditions themselves. I saw someone berating a poster for keeping a betta in a community tank yet they had posted a photo of their betta with neon tetra just a few months earlier.
They are sanctimonious because they are angry at themselves but don't have the knowledge/ confidence to provide a reasoned view or admit they are mistaken. They usually calm down eventually! Those few that don't will leave.

The good thing is that they are in the minority. Most everyone hear is very accepting and willing to help new keepers with issues and to understand what issues there may be, without the judgment.
I mean, where would we be without @Colin_T ??

(I mention him, but there are many others that have helped me personally! )

 

[itiwhetu]

@Gavin MaGrath and @itiwhetu you guys know the old methods. This aquarium hobby is not difficult at all. Many old timers know exactly what you are talking about. Fish are very adaptable and good clean water is what they really need. The water in their native habitats is getting bad thanks to the encroachment of civilization. Go look in a creek or river near your own home and see for yourself.

In New Zealand we are blessed with very clean rivers and lakes, BUT due to an increase in Dairy farming all that is changing, the high levels of run off from fertilizers are destroying our water ways. Which is the question I ask to those who use fertilizers in their tanks, be careful you may be causing some of your fish problems through your use of them.

 

[FF_Member146894]

don't call me judgemental, but playing the "best i can do" card is wrong IMO
example: keeping a 2 foot fish in a 55 gallon and saying "it's the best i can do" doesn't make it right

We keep fish in glass boxes, no fish's ideal conditions.

it really depends on how big the "glass box" is

 

[noobfish]

don't call me judgemental, but playing the "best i can do" card is wrong IMO
example: keeping a 2 foot fish in a 55 gallon and saying "it's the best i can do" doesn't make it right


it really depends on how big the "glass box" is

But your glass box is the best you can do, right? Otherwise why not get a 5000g? Absurd example, yes. Point is we are all doing the best we can. Just because a study says x fish needs y amount of water doesn't mean they wouldn't thrive with 100 times more.

 

[coriesinhawaii]

Agreed.
However, if we were able to get into the habit of saying 'I believe that...', rather than stating stuff as definite facts, it might help.
When we do state definite facts, then facts they must be and some evidence that they are facts should be provided.
A compromise would be to say something along the lines of 'I believe...based on my experience of....' with ' I also understand that others share my belief, as seen here...(provide YouTube link or reference or whatever).'

I totally agree with you. The problem is that most people have a very hard time telling the difference between opinion and fact. Hardly anyone on here (or in life in general) says “in my experience” “I believe” or “I’ve found that”….instead they state everything like it is a fact, even if it’s something that is quite obviously an opinion to a third party. Argument wise this tends to give what they say more authority and credibility to people who can not tell the difference but is a red flag to people who can. I don’t think this is usually done intentionally it’s just something people pick up along the way. They notice people listen to them more if they speak in that way. It’s unfortunate though because it’s misleading.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I, for one, use this site for the information available and for clarification of things that confuse me. I haven't had a tank for close to 20 years and nearly everything has changed except cycling a tank: new fish available, new products, and new hardware. Yes, occasionally the advice we find is in conflict with other advice, but I look to see how long the "advisor" has been fishkeeping. I also have bought lots of books on fish, plants, and general knowledge; this site is another resource for me.

 

[Deleted member 149562]

I got my first fish when I was 9 or 10 years old. It was a scraggy little goldfish that my dad won at the fair. We put it into a goldfish bowl (yes that is what the box said in the early 70's..so who were we to argue). Water straight from the tap, no substrate, no filter...just one scraggy little sausage in a bowl.

That fish lived for almost 20 years. Grew a tad quickly so dad and I got it bigger homes at a regular basis. In the end dad gave in with my pleading and dug a pond in the garden. That scraggy little thing of no more than a couple of inches lived to old age and close to 2ft long without any fancy pantsy filters or water treatments etc.

Sometimes I wish things could return to that simple way of fishkeeping....but then the multibillion fish additive industry would go bust.

I am old school. My fish have no water treatments, basic filtration, no heating in the summer months (the filter's powerhead manages to warm the water perfectly well on its own)

I think there is too much dependence on additives and medications and those who are new to the game of keeping fish thesedays are literally blinded by science and the person at the till in the shop.

There is absolutely no need to throw the entire chemist shop at your fish at the slightest sneeze.

Clean, fresh water is natures best medicine.

The most frustrating thing I have seen happen to newbies to the game are that they are recommended certain fish...like Betta...told how easy peasy they are when they are so genetically messed up they are prone to all sorts of illness and disease that the Betta I had 40+ years ago came in two colours red or blue and lived to a ripe old age without so much as a sniffle.

I understand the frustrations of newbies who feel attacked when they buy their first fish and everything goes pearshaped. We have to remember that 90% of these lovely people have only done what they were told to do at the shop. We as "experienced" fishy keepers know the differences and how to treat most ailments, much of what we know has come from trial and error and bad advice.

Fishkeeping is NOT easy. It can be hard graft, it can be expensive and when things go wrong it can be devastating. But at the same time it can also be one of the most rewarding pastimes you will ever experience.

So on the frustration side of things, I hate it when someone new to the game has done as they were told at the shop both in species type, aquarium size and care and its all gone horribly wrong, they come to forums like this and ask for help only to be shot down in flames and made to feel like they are the world's worst fishkeeper.

We were all first timers once, we have all made errors....back when I had that scraggy little goldfish, life was simple. It isn't anymore, its a minefield filled with good intentions, bad advice, inbred/overbred fish that die too soon and too easily and chemicals.

That, to me at least, is not just frustrating...its sad.