Frustrating advice for newcomers to the fish world

[PheonixKingZ]

I honestly just feel sorry for @Colin_T. If people would just look at the stickied threads, they could read about everything they need to do to help their fish and tank.

The man has spent so much time writing up these great articles, and no one reads them.

 

[Naughts]

Parameters however are always changing, so the person would have to update them almost constantly to make sure they are accurate for other people.

Parameters (GH, KH, pH and temperature) should be pretty constant.
Conditions (ammonia, nitrite and nitrate) can change.

 

[Naughts]

What's the 19dh/340ppm?

GH or hardness. It measures the amount of minerals, mainly calcium and magnesium is in the water. It tells us that Clownlurch has very hard water hence is only suitable for hard water fish.
We used to be concerned about pH but we now recognise that fish welfare is effected more by GH.

 

[Bruce Leyland-Jones]

GH or hardness. It measures the amount of minerals, mainly calcium and magnesium is in the water. It tells us that Clownlurch has very hard water hence is only suitable for hard water fish.
We used to be concerned about pH but we now recognise that fish welfare is effected more by GH.

I'd guessed as much but was making the point of the potential difficulties with the suggestion of having such info in a signature, in a format everyone can understand.

 

[Bruce Leyland-Jones]

Parameters (GH, KH, pH and temperature) should be pretty constant.
Conditions (ammonia, nitrite and nitrate) can change.

Interesting response...I think some of us, (definitely myself), would include ammonia, nitrite and nitrate levels as 'parameters'.

 

[OliveFish05]

I honestly just feel sorry for @Colin_T. If people would just look at the stickied threads, they could read about everything they need to do to help their fish and tank.

The man has spent so much time writing up these great articles, and no one reads them.

I read them! I will admit though, sometimes (a lot of the time) when your fish is sick, getting answers to your individual questions is extremely helpful. So is getting multiple peoples opinions on a problem. It is also sometimes hard to find the right stickies, especially when you are new to the site and didn’t even know they’re there! But I agree, they’re very well done and must've taken a huge amount of effort.

 

[Essjay]

Interesting response...I think some of us, (definitely myself), would include ammonia, nitrite and nitrate levels as 'parameters'.

Naughts is quite right.
Parameters are pH, GH, KH and temperature
Conditions are ammonia, nitrite and nitrate.

 

[DoubleDutch]

I read them! I will admit though, sometimes (a lot of the time) when your fish is sick, getting answers to your individual questions is extremely helpful. So is getting multiple peoples opinions on a problem. It is also sometimes hard to find the right stickies, especially when you are new to the site and didn’t even know they’re there! But I agree, they’re very well done and must've taken a huge amount of effort.

Then one should provide the right and enough info + pics or vids.

 

[noobfish]

As a newer member I think some of the frustration lies in the delivery of advice. Users join and ask for advice from other, more experienced hobbyists. And while this experience is valued and sought after, I've read a few threads where advice comes off as a soapbox lecture from a self proclaimed "expert". (I quote expert because unless one has the appropriate degrees, it's advice based on one's experience.) This talking down to and accusatory delivery in turn seems to put the OP on the defense and the thread goes downhill from there. No good comes from that and people aren't as receptive to suggestions. Lots of questions come from true newbies and that requires a degree of understanding from those that want to help. It should never delve into shaming. Delivery should come from "in my experience" or "in my opinion".
I've received some great advice on here and value the opinions of those more experienced. I find most all here willing and knowledgeable and I appreciate the desire to share. That said, if advice were to be delivered in a shameful or degrading manner, I'm likely ignoring it.

 

[Gavin MaGrath]

Ok, I'm in a Covid-19 lock down and have time to think.
Tell us what is the most frustrating advise you get off this forum site. Hopefully that will help us so called experts or experienced fish keepers some idea of how to help those new to the hobby to become more confident and more informed. I think sometimes we become to long winded and give way to much detail rather than sticking to the basics.
What do the new to the world of fish keeping want to here from us.

All I can say is that I've been keeping fish since the 80's and the paranoia that has taken over the industry by big companies trying to sell products through fear is insane.
Theories and facts. Well, here are a few facts. I've never ever cycled a tank without fish in it and I've never lost a fish due to it.
The way to cycle a tank asap is to have a small amount of fish to develop the cycle. This empty cycling tank business never used to exist.
We want fish in pure water right? So put them in pure water. Then allow the natural cycle to develop by doing water changes frequently to keep nitrates low. I do introduce bacteria from other tanks filter material however I recently set up a 70 gallon with zero cycling and a few small fish. No added bacteria. (Never lost a fish and have about 30 fishing that tank(including a male Betta)
Naturally the fish waste begins the cycle. Throw plants in there to additionally help. Big ones.
What people are missing are water changes. If you have an issue, its probably because you're trying to solve a problem with products. Its not a lake. Do 50% water changes 3 times a week and see what happens.
What are my water parameters. Don't know, don't test, unless experimenting.
Here's a novel idea. If your fish seem lethargic, do a 50% water change and notice the difference. Ever wonder why fish get so active and frisky after a water change? You are naturally purifying the water.
I didn't make this stuff up. I was fortunate enough to study with a mentor, one of the greats in the hobby, Dr.James Langhammer. Of not for him some species would be lost forever.
Through decades, what hecsaid was true. These fish adapt to the local aquarium conditions.
I keep guppies in 78 degree water inside and outside in 88 degrees. The outside ones do better and grow bigger. No filter, just a bunch of big plants. Not much food as the tank is full of life. Hardly any water changes. Outside tanks are only 20 gallons, so I just change 10% or so weekly.
The caveat to this who would jump on me is that, yes, there are species needing certain conditions. My Discus were certainly taken care of differently for example. Some fish which are difficult to keep alive or need certain conditions to breed are exceptions. I'm talking about the 95% of fish you find in your lfs or chain store.
Most of you are not keeping extremely rate and sensitive livebrarers, like certain Goodeids, which I do.
Trust me on one thing. Do a 3 month experiment. Do nothing but 50% water changes 3 times a week(more for 10 and under tanks) that will fix any nitrate issue you have. Do no testing unless you want to prove my point. Don't worry, overfeed, yes, most people underfeed,(fish, in nature eat most of the time, except big predators) watch your fish thrive.
One more caveat, if you live in an area where you have extreme water conditions, that's different bit only because you have to establish what they are. Fish stores in those rare locations will let you know.
What is far more important than overworrying about balancing tank chemistry, is to study fish. Read and watch everything you can.
If you want complexity, focus on food and types for different species, start breeding, study genetics, learn everything you can about the natural state of the fish. More important than water, to which they'll adapt, is environment.
People keeping fish, Plecos or Red tail sharks,for example, in full light and not giving completely dark cover is cruel. I have a huge red tail shark who spends 80% of the day, or more in a cave, in 90% darkness, totally out of choice. He shares it with a Synodontus Eupterus, which I almost never see. I give that cover because they need it. Many people selfishly want to see the fish, more than give them natural habitat. That's just me though, I design my tanks for the fish, not for me. There are tons of open water species. Surprisingly though, some of those take more cover, if offered than you'd think.
I hope this helps take the stress I read about all the time on here from some people. Enjoy your fish!

 

[DoubleDutch]

All I can say is that I've been keeping fish since the 80's and the paranoia that has taken over the industry by big companies trying to sell products through fear is insane.
Theories and facts. Well, here are a few facts. I've never ever cycled a tank without fish in it and I've never lost a fish due to it.
The way to cycle a tank asap is to have a small amount of fish to develop the cycle. This empty cycling tank business never used to exist.
We want fish in pure water right? So put them in pure water. Then allow the natural cycle to develop by doing water changes frequently to keep nitrates low. I do introduce bacteria from other tanks filter material however I recently set up a 70 gallon with zero cycling and a few small fish. No added bacteria. (Never lost a fish and have about 30 fishing that tank(including a male Betta)
Naturally the fish waste begins the cycle. Throw plants in there to additionally help. Big ones.
What people are missing are water changes. If you have an issue, its probably because you're trying to solve a problem with products. Its not a lake. Do 50% water changes 3 times a week and see what happens.
What are my water parameters. Don't know, don't test, unless experimenting.
Here's a novel idea. If your fish seem lethargic, do a 50% water change and notice the difference. Ever wonder why fish get so active and frisky after a water change? You are naturally purifying the water.
I didn't make this stuff up. I was fortunate enough to study with a mentor, one of the greats in the hobby, Dr.James Langhammer. Of not for him some species would be lost forever.
Through decades, what hecsaid was true. These fish adapt to the local aquarium conditions.
I keep guppies in 78 degree water inside and outside in 88 degrees. The outside ones do better and grow bigger. No filter, just a bunch of big plants. Not much food as the tank is full of life. Hardly any water changes. Outside tanks are only 20 gallons, so I just change 10% or so weekly.
The caveat to this who would jump on me is that, yes, there are species needing certain conditions. My Discus were certainly taken care of differently for example. Some fish which are difficult to keep alive or need certain conditions to breed are exceptions. I'm talking about the 95% of fish you find in your lfs or chain store.
Most of you are not keeping extremely rate and sensitive livebrarers, like certain Goodeids, which I do.
Trust me on one thing. Do a 3 month experiment. Do nothing but 50% water changes 3 times a week(more for 10 and under tanks) that will fix any nitrate issue you have. Do no testing unless you want to prove my point. Don't worry, overfeed, yes, most people underfeed,(fish, in nature eat most of the time, except big predators) watch your fish thrive.
One more caveat, if you live in an area where you have extreme water conditions, that's different bit only because you have to establish what they are. Fish stores in those rare locations will let you know.
What is far more important than overworrying about balancing tank chemistry, is to study fish. Read and watch everything you can.
If you want complexity, focus on food and types for different species, start breeding, study genetics, learn everything you can about the natural state of the fish. More important than water, to which they'll adapt, is environment.
People keeping fish, Plecos or Red tail sharks,for example, in full light and not giving completely dark cover is cruel. I have a huge red tail shark who spends 80% of the day, or more in a cave, in 90% darkness, totally out of choice. He shares it with a Synodontus Eupterus, which I almost never see. I give that cover because they need it. Many people selfishly want to see the fish, more than give them natural habitat. That's just me though, I design my tanks for the fish, not for me. There are tons of open water species. Surprisingly though, some of those take more cover, if offered than you'd think.
I hope this helps take the stress I read about all the time on here from some people. Enjoy your fish!

Applaus

 

[Gavin MaGrath]

We know that many shops are all too ready to sell medications to customers. Can you imagine just how little profit they'd make if all they did was to advise to do a water change, or to tweak the temperature?
Even as a society, we are all to ready to stick a medical label on a relatively normal condition. Feeling a little down, becomes 'Clinically Depressed', getting upset becomes 'PTSD', etc.. So if we do this to ourselves, it's all to easy to apply it to those in our care.

Agin, I'm seeing more use for The Form.

You are correct. 100%. If you want to fix your water, do water changes approproate to your set up. I guarantee that 50% water changes and "overfeeding" fish since that they ate healthy will eliminate 75% or more of peoples issues. I don't even test my water. What's the point (outside of setting parameters for a very few species) the change fixes your problem. I just wrote a post that I've never cycled a tank without putting fish in right away, in 4 decades and never lost an original fish due to water conditions. Perhaps because putting fish in pure water is what they want, lol. Marketing has freaked people out.

 

[Back in the fold]

Can I keep guppies with Oscars ?

 

[Colin_T]

Can I keep guppies with Oscars ?

no

--------------------

The way to cycle a tank asap is to have a small amount of fish to develop the cycle. This empty cycling tank business never used to exist.

It did for marine tanks and Rift Lake cichlid tanks but that was due to the high pH of the water in these types of tanks. The pH being 8.5 for marine and 7.6-9.0 for the Rift Lake tanks. The high pH caused ammonia to be very toxic to fish and other aquatic organisms, and we did fishless cycles on these tanks so the fish didn't die.

 

[Back in the fold]

@Colin_T Are you sure ? What if I raise my temperature to 55 and lower the pH to 9 ? Maybe if I got a bigger tank ? Say maybe a 5 gallon ?
OK. I'm being facetious but I've read stuff like this on here. Every newcomer to this hobby should have one very good general reference book about fish keeping and should read it thoroughly . If these innocent lambs are looking to a goof like me for advice they will crash and burn spectacularly !