Freshwater Stingray In London (Hard Water)?

[Jim Huggett]

Hi

I had been thinking of getting a freshwater stingray after wanting one for around 20 years now and after reading up on various books and websites was a bit depressed when, as I am living in London, I read that the water was a bit hard.

I then read that some people have successfully kept them in London without the support of an RO unit.

Can anyone tell me if they have kept them in the London area (or know of people who have) and whether there are any special considerations, favoured species etc. when considering harder water.

Thank you in advance.

Jim

 

[nmonks]

It's not worth it. Or at least, before you buy a stingray, spend the £10 on Richard Ross' book on stingrays. If you can't afford his book, or even pause for a moment before spending the money, then you can't afford to keep stingrays. They are EXTREMELY expensive pets.

Water chemistry is in fact not critical; however, nitrate levels are, and in London, your tap water will have a nitrate level of between 40-50 mg/l, far too high for stingrays. Remember, you're aiming for near-zero nitrate levels, and certainly no higher than 20 mg/l.

Some people keep stingrays in London tap water, but it's very hit-and-miss. Since you'll be spending at least a thousand pounds on the huge aquarium and the equally huge filtration system, not to mention tens/hundreds of pounds per year on electricity, water and food, you may as well budget in an RO system as well.

There isn't a cheap way to keep stingrays -- at least, not outside the tropics where they live! People who try to keep stingrays on a budget usually end up with a dead stingray.

Cheers, Neale

 

[Jim Huggett]

Thank you Neale

It is not my intention to keep them on a budget and I will look at the book you recommend. I had not considered the nitrate load in the tap water and you make a good point about the RO unit. My main concern about the RO unit was the amount of water wasted.

I will do some more research, but keep my options open as there are a lot of alternative oddities.

I am grateful to you for your advice.

Jim

 

[nmonks]

Glad to help. I'm afraid reading my own reply I was giving you the worst case scenario outlook. Some people do keep stingrays at higher nitrate levels than 20mg/l. One thing to remember is that we treat nitrate as a proxy for water quality (nitrate may well be, even at 40 mg/l, relatively non-toxic to stingrays). It may not be nitrate so much as how old the water is that matters. So if you have a big, understocked, over-filtered tank and do weekly 50% water changes (keeping water chemistry, temperature steady) then it may well be that 40, 50 mg/l nitrate levels are fine. But those nitrate levels in a small, overstocked tank tied in with limited water changes and the reverse may be true: the stingrays quickly go off colour.

Complicating this is the size and appetite of the stingrays. Even if you assume London tap water (at 40 mg/l nitrate) is "safe", keeping a big predator in any aquarium means dumping a lot of protein into the tank. You may quickly find you end up with nitrate levels of 150, 200 mg/l after a week! If you're using London tap water (nitrate = 40 mg/l), diluting this nitrate will be much more difficult than diluting the same using RO water with Discus buffer added (nitrate = 0 mg/l). You'd need to do more and/or bigger water changes to wrangle nitrate levels down to the ~50 mg/l level you'd expect these fish to tolerate (if not necessarily enjoy) while maintaining good health.

In other words, step back, look at the aquarium you have in mind, think about stocking density and feeding regimen, and then read Richard Ross' book. Balance up all the factors before spending any money.

Does this make sense?

Cheers, Neale

Thank you Neale

It is not my intention to keep them on a budget and I will look at the book you recommend. I had not considered the nitrate load in the tap water and you make a good point about the RO unit. My main concern about the RO unit was the amount of water wasted.

I will do some more research, but keep my options open as there are a lot of alternative oddities.

I am grateful to you for your advice.

Jim

 

[Jim Huggett]

Yes and thanks again.

Will do some more research and may come back to you.

Best wishes

Jim

 

[yargnits]

It's not worth it. Or at least, before you buy a stingray, spend the £10 on Richard Ross' book on stingrays. If you can't afford his book, or even pause for a moment before spending the money, then you can't afford to keep stingrays. They are EXTREMELY expensive pets.

Water chemistry is in fact not critical; however, nitrate levels are, and in London, your tap water will have a nitrate level of between 40-50 mg/l, far too high for stingrays. Remember, you're aiming for near-zero nitrate levels, and certainly no higher than 20 mg/l.

Some people keep stingrays in London tap water, but it's very hit-and-miss. Since you'll be spending at least a thousand pounds on the huge aquarium and the equally huge filtration system, not to mention tens/hundreds of pounds per year on electricity, water and food, you may as well budget in an RO system as well.

There isn't a cheap way to keep stingrays -- at least, not outside the tropics where they live! People who try to keep stingrays on a budget usually end up with a dead stingray.

Cheers, Neale

i realise that the above user is a respected member of the forum and obviously has a high post count, but these posts urged me to comment since the above information seems quite complicated
even to someone who has kept stingrays for many years.

as far as im aware there are lots of ray keepers in and around london who keep rays with little to no trouble. im not sure what nitrate level you are sugesting is the typical aim for a standard community tank or something that you would consider easy to keep but i doubt that the stingrays requirements of nitrates are much different and i would expect that most experienced keepers on here of any fish do regular small water changes on their tanks just as you would on a ray tank.

i would perhaps stay away from the books or information from people who have not kept rays for more than a short time and ask someone who is experienced or go to a reputable shop who will be able to advise you well.

feel free to pm me and i will hapily point you in the right direct if i can help as i know its hard to find decent shops ( and was the reason i was browsing this forum in the first place lol )

no disrespect to the above comments and it is always best to air on the side of caution but the first things you need to consider is the adult size of the ray you intend to purchase and the minimum tank size for that ray ( probalby 6 x 2.5 x 2 min for most smaller species but do check ). if you can acomodate the min tanks size and the long life span then you at least have a good starting point. good luck

 

[nmonks]

No disrespect taken! Always good to have a second point of view, and welcome to the forum!

In fact if you read Richard Ross' book (and if you know him, you'll know he's the classic super-experienced stingray-keeper) he actually does play down nitrate itself as a problem. He describes levels as high as 200 mg/l as being safe for most species. He does, however, state than levels of 50 mg/l will be needed for breeding, and this may be a clue to the difference between a stingray surviving and a stingray doing really well. Read his book and come to your own conclusions.

Cheers, Neale

no disrespect to the above comments and it is always best to air on the side of caution but the first things you need to consider is the adult size of the ray you intend to purchase and the minimum tank size for that ray ( probalby 6 x 2.5 x 2 min for most smaller species but do check ). if you can acomodate the min tanks size and the long life span then you at least have a good starting point. good luck

 

[always4lora]

24/7 water change with HMA filter, job done.
May cost a little bit of money with electricity in the colder months but you don't really have to worry about the tank as much.

 

[always4lora]

Some people keep stingrays in London tap water, but it's very hit-and-miss. Since you'll be spending at least a thousand pounds on the huge aquarium and the equally huge filtration system, not to mention tens/hundreds of pounds per year on electricity, water and food, you may as well budget in an RO system as well.

There isn't a cheap way to keep stingrays -- at least, not outside the tropics where they live! People who try to keep stingrays on a budget usually end up with a dead stingray.

Cheers, Neale

RO is generally not needed, it may help but at the same time from what i remember you had to add stuff back into the water? Maybe wrong as i havent had one for quite some years now. HMA filters are good as they don't have the wastage of RO but still filter the water. I have one from Devotadly Discus and can't recommend it enough.

Keeping rays compared to some bread and butter fish is expensive but there's always ways to do it ona budget, for example i got a tank and sump made for less than £250-300, Rays can be purchased from breeders too to save money over shops. I think the budget causing dead rays is normally people buying the cheapest ray they can find without checking the basics such as it's eating ok, no cartlidge sticking out near the eyes due to hunger, all things you typically find on a cheap ray.

I think many people are put off rays due to people thinking theres some great science to keeping them, just do your research, at least meet their requirements with an aim to exceed them and you're golden.

 

[yargnits]

always4lora is right. purchasing a decent ray is the best start no hip bones showing no dent in the head are the first things to look for of you can see them eating a food that you are able to provide then thats great.

not sure about the book although i might have a looksey now its been mentioned although i think mr ross maybe a user im familar with elsewhere, in the meantime i know people who have bred rays in 12" high tank with high nitrates and i know of a few who swear nitrates are not an issue as well as people who just plain ole tap water for water changes with breeding success ( t1 was one that i can think of re nitrates who i noticed when i was browsing the pred room after joining ).

my point was only to have a better look round and dont be put off from ray keeping by books or by people who havnt kept rays. ... allways4lora has or has had rays as far as i can remember so you could ask him for an independant opinion but get a few before you make your mind up.

good luck