Fishless Cycling

[rdd1952]

Hi Molly,

If it were only that simple. The problem is that the bacteria need food to live. You can buy the bacteria in a bottle products but none of them seem to work. The problems is that they are subjected to sch temperature extremes while traveling in trucks and sitting in warehouses. They see temps well below freezing in the winter and over 150 in the summer in those trucks. Even in a warehouse, it's not unusual for the temperature near the ceiling to be well over 100. So first, they see to much extreme temperatures and second, they have no food in the bottle so over time, they die off. It's even been debated whether those products actually contain the proper bacteria in the first place.

There are a couple products that do seem to work for some. Those are Bio-Spira in the US and Bactinettes in the UK. But even those get very mixed reviews.

The simplest way is to clone a tank. Simply move media from an existing tank into the new one. The bacteria are on he media so you basically have an immediately cycled tank. That's fine if you have other tanks but if you're new to the hobby, you don't usually have that option unless you know someone that can give you some media.

 

[MollyFresh]

Okay, So I bought bacteria from Petco. I looked in the bottle very closely and saw little specs. Does that mean the bacteria are still alive?? What food does the bacteria eat?? I have fish in the tank that poop and there must be some left over flakes somewhere. Do they eat that? Or does only the "Bad" bacteria eat that. Well If the bacteria I put in the tank worked.. would I have an immediately cycled tank??

 

[waterdrop]

Okay, So I bought bacteria from Petco. I looked in the bottle very closely and saw little specs. Does that mean the bacteria are still alive?? What food does the bacteria eat?? I have fish in the tank that poop and there must be some left over flakes somewhere. Do they eat that? Or does only the "Bad" bacteria eat that. Well If the bacteria I put in the tank worked.. would I have an immediately cycled tank??

(OK, hang with me here and read it twice if you need to )

It generally takes from 3 weeks to 3 months to cycle a tank/filter. The reason we use the word cycle is because the process goes round and round - the teaching charts to describe it use little arrows making a circle. The fish poo (and the waste from them breathing with their gills, isn't that cool!), the leftover flakes and any broken off plant parts will float around in the tank, then there are these tiny invisible bacteria that are everywhere in the water and reproduce really fast which we call heterotrophic bacteria -- anyway, these guys gobble up all that stuff and create ammonia from it, so then there is ammonia moving around the tank. The ammonia is food for some completely different types of bacteria called autotrophic bacteria -- these guys reproduce much more slowly and anchor themselves to all the hard surfaces, especially the media inside a filter where fresh water, ammonia and oxygen are flowing past, giving them the perfect environment they like. There are two species of these that we fishkeepers want to grow in our filters. The first species likes to eat ammonia and starts growing as soon as the ammonia is there. I'll call them A-bacs (for Ammonia-eating bacteria) and they change the ammonia into nitrite (nitrite with letter "I", has symbols NO2.) The second species likes to eat those nitrite (NO2) and produce nitrates (nitrate with letter "A", has symbols NO3.) I'll call them N-bacs (for Nitrite-eating bacteria.) The A-bacs have to grow and start producing NO2 before the N-bacs will grow and start producing NO3.

The reason we like to grow A-bacs and N-bacs in our filter is because ammonia and nitrite are bad poisons to fish. Ammonia burns and damages their gills for life. Nitrite stops their blood from working correctly and suffocates the fish. If we have grown big enough populations of A-bacs and N-bacs in our filter, the two poisons will be processed away so fast that the fish will not be hurt. The final product of this cycle, the nitrates (NO3), are not as bad as the first two to the fish and we take that out by doing our weekly water changes.

If the bottle you are talking about contained some muck from the stores or someones working filter, then we would call it mature media and it would "jump-start" your cycling process (like the mature media you asked for help on in the media donations pinned topic above.) If the bottle you are describing is a product from the store shelf then unfortunately you probably wasted your money. Hundreds of TFF members before you have tried this and reported that it made no difference to the time it takes to cycle than if they had not used it.

I am guessing that you are trying all these things hoping to get pretty fish in that tank as soon as possible, right? I recommend that the way to get those fish and have them be happy and healthy is to stay right here on TFF and let us all help you through this fishless cycling thing and meanwhile you can be planning what fish to get and looking at their pictures on google images and generally getting yourself really ready for your new friends. Your new fish will be really lively and colorful if they find a new home where the water is right for them, instead of getting sick and dying in a tank that is not ready!

You're already here and asking the right questions, just keep up the good work,
~~waterdrop~~

 

[MollyFresh]

Okay, I wish I knew someone who already had a cycled tank. I could just take their bacteria lol. Okay so what if I just went to petsmart and asked for some of their "Filter media". ???

 

[Miss Wiggle]

Okay, I wish I knew someone who already had a cycled tank. I could just take their bacteria lol. Okay so what if I just went to petsmart and asked for some of their "Filter media". ???

generally you'll find with the big chain fish shops they won't give you any, but if you can get them to give you some then that would be great. just stick it in your filter, then start adding ammonia as per the fishless cycle instructions but you'll find it takes a couple of days instead of a couple of weeks.

if you have a small local fish shop then they may be more willing to give/sell you some media.

alternativley look at the 'media donation' link in my sig and see if there's any members near you who are willing to donate some.

 

[waterdrop]

Molly/Cassie,

I'm confused (not only about your name!) as to whether you have a second tank you wish to fishless cycle or only have the one 10-gallon with the 4 mollies, which would need a "fish-in" cycle, possibly... (?)

~~waterdrop~~

 

[MollyFresh]

I only have the one 10 gallon tank, now there is about 0.50 ammonia in my tank. That is okay right? The bacteria will eat it right? I do daily water changes but I havent dont the 45% water change for today yet. Its about 1:00PM now and I usually do a water change at like 5 or 6 pm. Would doing a water change now solve the problem? I have a siphon



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I saw the media donation, I live in New jersey so I don't think there is anyone neer me that could give me some. Knowone I know has a fishtank. I was thinking about making a post asking for people neer where I live to give me some filter media but I dont think its such a good idea because the post that is already here about donations, and people will probably just direct me to this anyway.

 

[rdd1952]

An ammonia reading of .5 is high and how tocis it is depends on your pH and the water temp. Ammonia becomes more toxic at higher pH levels and at higher temperatures. For instance, a reading of .5 in a tank with the water pH at 6.2 and temp of 76 would be considerable less dangerous as the same reading with a pH of 7.6 and temp of 80.

For now, you should do water changes as needed to get the ammonia below .25 ppm. If that requires 2 a day, then that's what you should do. Also, you may want to cut back on feedings. Once a day is fine. I actually skip a day here and there on my tanks. Fish can easily go several weeks without being fed.

The bacteria will eventually process the ammonia and the subsequent nitrite but they have to build to numbers that can handle it first. Most bacteria multiple in very short time spans but the nitrifying bacteria that process ammonia and nitrite need anywhere from 8 to 30 hours to double so it takes while for their numbers to catch up to the waste producted by the fish.

Have you tested for nitrite or nitrate yet? If you have nitrite, then at least some ammonia is being processed and a climbing nitrate level indicates that ammonia AND nitrite are being processed.

Finding media is difficult. Thepinned topic hasn't been kept up to date very well and a lot of the names on it aren't active any more. You can try a threadand just put in it that you know the pinned one exists but that you didn't find anyone near you on it.

 

[waterdrop]

I only have the one 10 gallon tank, now there is about 0.50 ammonia in my tank. That is okay right? The bacteria will eat it right? I do daily water changes but I havent dont the 45% water change for today yet. Its about 1:00PM now and I usually do a water change at like 5 or 6 pm. Would doing a water change now solve the problem? I have a siphon



-----------------------------------------------------


I saw the media donation, I live in New jersey so I don't think there is anyone neer me that could give me some. Knowone I know has a fishtank. I was thinking about making a post asking for people neer where I live to give me some filter media but I dont think its such a good idea because the post that is already here about donations, and people will probably just direct me to this anyway.

Molly/Cassie,
OK, now that we know you only have the 10-gallon with fish in it, that is cleared up. Our help follows a very basic path... with fish in there you are already doing a "fish-in" cycle (fishless cycling has different instructions for ammonia and you are getting confused by hearing some of those instructions.) What RDD is telling you above is correct for your fish-in cycling process. It is very, very important to do whatever water changes are necessary to get ammonia and nitrogen way down to between zero and 0.25ppm as he says. Don't worry about the bacteria, in a fish-in cycle they will be getting a little ammonia all the time, despite your water changes.

In a fishless cycle we can worry about the bacteria full-time. In a fish-in cycle like yours, the fish have to take first priority and the bacteria take a back seat. (In -either- type of cycling process a mature media donation will help, but you have seen that there is a somewhat low chance of finding a donation.)

~~waterdrop~~

 

[MollyFresh]

Okay, I will try my best to get the ammonia down to .25 or 0
right now its at .50 so I guess thats not too bad but it is still bad so i'll do a water change now


Edit: I am done the water change. I changed the water by 50%
I just tested the water and the results are the same as before. .25-.50 Ammonia
I can't seem to get it down to 0

 

[jaffee2k8]

Well - obviously well written. But not well understood for someone who is clueless in the fish world and obviously not well directed by the pet store. My water was never cloudy. I already have the fish in the tank - so what should I do now. The water is holding a good 78 temp - goes down to 76 with the lights and the fish seem fine - especially the betta. Some advice on some hardy fish that will live with the betta? Thanks.

hi all i hav just set up my new 70 litre and ready to put fish in ,,can enyone give me some advice on wot fish to put in help plz!!!
i like bigest as possible and colurful but i wont to make the fish happy

 

[waterdrop]

Okay, I will try my best to get the ammonia down to .25 or 0
right now its at .50 so I guess thats not too bad but it is still bad so i'll do a water change now


Edit: I am done the water change. I changed the water by 50%
I just tested the water and the results are the same as before. .25-.50 Ammonia
I can't seem to get it down to 0

It seems the opposite of what you'd think but it gets harder as you get closer down to the lower number. As there is less ammonia and it is distributed evenly, when you take out your 50%, less and less of that is ammonia. Does that make sense?

On a different note, every "fish-in" cycler becomes someone who has learned the hard way why fishless cycling is easier. Four weeks or so of lots of water changes just gets downright hard and tiring at some point!

~~waterdrop~~

Well - obviously well written. But not well understood for someone who is clueless in the fish world and obviously not well directed by the pet store. My water was never cloudy. I already have the fish in the tank - so what should I do now. The water is holding a good 78 temp - goes down to 76 with the lights and the fish seem fine - especially the betta. Some advice on some hardy fish that will live with the betta? Thanks.

hi all i hav just set up my new 70 litre and ready to put fish in ,,can enyone give me some advice on wot fish to put in help plz!!!
i like bigest as possible and colurful but i wont to make the fish happy

hey jaffee, maybe you should look into some of the smaller german rams, like german blue rams

 

[MollyFresh]

Okay, well Imma tough it out and keep the fish. Either untill they die or... well yeah thats it. Call me mean but I'm too lazy to take them back and my mom has had it up to here * raises my hand as high as it will go in the air* with driving me to the fish store every single day =/

 

[jaffee2k8]

This should be immediately pinned. It is among the best fishless cycling articles available on the web, as far as I'm concerned.

I'm flattered. Thanks very much. I started it a month or two ago and then kind of forgot about it. I just hope it clears up some confusion and can be of help to beginners.

well m8 u are a good guy and a credit to these forums

Okay, well Imma tough it out and keep the fish. Either untill they die or... well yeah thats it. Call me mean but I'm too lazy to take them back and my mom has had it up to here * raises my hand as high as it will go in the air* with driving me to the fish store every single day =/

well u should not even hav fish

 

[ally86ozzy]

i dont get cycling at all. ive never cycled my tanks and my fish r okay (i only hav 2 mosquitofish and a guppy but still) . Is it okay to let the water sit? will it stabilize itself? i dont get cycling at all.... BTW plz click my eggs and dragon on my sig! -heart , ally86ozzy