waterdrop
Enthusiastic "Re-Beginner"
Hi nicnak and Jeff,
You have posted directly under the "pinned article" for fishless cycling. No problem, but I think RDD and the other experts only look here occasionally. There is much more discussion activity if you post down in the "New to the Hobby" forum I think.
Meanwhile, I'll take a start at your questions:
nicnak: Sorry to hear those bacteria don't seem to be playing by the rules, mine are not always giving me back good signs either! Your story is a good example of why it is also recommended that "fishless cyclers" continue feeding in the daily ammonia and testing for another week or so even after they think they have finished the process successfully. To find that one or the other of ammonia or nitrite again won't drop should not, I believe, change your behaviour. However, when fishless cycling, a large water change is usually more effective than a small water change - there is nothing wrong whatsoever with changing out all the water except what's sitting in the filter and then bringing your ammonia back up to somewhere between 2 and 4ppm level (after all, its not the water you are cycling, its the filter!)
Jeff:
Sorry to hear about your problems - you are a good example of why nearly all those supposed cycling products are almost always worthless. They are worthless in so many ways - usually continuous refridgeration was lost somewhere along the way and the funniest one of all is that they probably have the wrong species of bacteria anyway! Or some of them are just effectively ammonia and not nearly as much ammonia as one would need to cycle a filter!
Plants love ammonia (at least in any of the quantities your fishless cycling would get up to) (and by the way, your starting upper ammonia level should be kept pretty closely between 4-6ppm (not 7-8ppm where a wrong species could start to develop)) Plants will even eat some of that ammonia and sometimes will absorb nitrates, convert those to ammonia and eat that! There is indeed some feeling that live plants might aid in fishless cycling as they (or technically, the biofilm and water film they carry into the aquarium) may be an "introducer" of the two good bacterial species we want. But note that this is pure speculation and aquarium systems are also cycled with pure ammonia and no live plants. Which plants has to be your choice. If you search TFF, there are lists of "easier" plants for beginners and even lists of plants best for cycling but I don't remember exactly where I've seen that.
"Speeding up cycling" is of course the "64 thousand dollar question" as we say in the states because everyone would love to know! Speed of cycling is very, very different in practice for real people (even though the theory can show that 21 days should be a sort of predictable time.) I have read what appear to be honest reports of TFF members who, all told, took 8 weeks for their fishless cycle, mistakes included etc.
[IMO the "randomizers" of time include the highly variable initial introduction of the starting bacterial population (after all, you are indeed relying on a few of the right bacteria to "be there" in your tap water (and indeed they are!), and the highly variable combinations of water parameters that people have in their tap water and tank environments and then their significantly variable actual behaviours with respect to testing, ammonia introductions and water changes etc.]
OK guys, if this was too boring to read, just move on over to "New to the Hobby" and keep asking questions. Luckily there are all sorts of members willing to communicate the info in many ways and one way is bound to suit you!
~~waterdrop~~ (recently returned to the hobby and having fun!)
You have posted directly under the "pinned article" for fishless cycling. No problem, but I think RDD and the other experts only look here occasionally. There is much more discussion activity if you post down in the "New to the Hobby" forum I think.
Meanwhile, I'll take a start at your questions:
nicnak: Sorry to hear those bacteria don't seem to be playing by the rules, mine are not always giving me back good signs either! Your story is a good example of why it is also recommended that "fishless cyclers" continue feeding in the daily ammonia and testing for another week or so even after they think they have finished the process successfully. To find that one or the other of ammonia or nitrite again won't drop should not, I believe, change your behaviour. However, when fishless cycling, a large water change is usually more effective than a small water change - there is nothing wrong whatsoever with changing out all the water except what's sitting in the filter and then bringing your ammonia back up to somewhere between 2 and 4ppm level (after all, its not the water you are cycling, its the filter!)
Jeff:
Sorry to hear about your problems - you are a good example of why nearly all those supposed cycling products are almost always worthless. They are worthless in so many ways - usually continuous refridgeration was lost somewhere along the way and the funniest one of all is that they probably have the wrong species of bacteria anyway! Or some of them are just effectively ammonia and not nearly as much ammonia as one would need to cycle a filter!
Plants love ammonia (at least in any of the quantities your fishless cycling would get up to) (and by the way, your starting upper ammonia level should be kept pretty closely between 4-6ppm (not 7-8ppm where a wrong species could start to develop)) Plants will even eat some of that ammonia and sometimes will absorb nitrates, convert those to ammonia and eat that! There is indeed some feeling that live plants might aid in fishless cycling as they (or technically, the biofilm and water film they carry into the aquarium) may be an "introducer" of the two good bacterial species we want. But note that this is pure speculation and aquarium systems are also cycled with pure ammonia and no live plants. Which plants has to be your choice. If you search TFF, there are lists of "easier" plants for beginners and even lists of plants best for cycling but I don't remember exactly where I've seen that.
"Speeding up cycling" is of course the "64 thousand dollar question" as we say in the states because everyone would love to know! Speed of cycling is very, very different in practice for real people (even though the theory can show that 21 days should be a sort of predictable time.) I have read what appear to be honest reports of TFF members who, all told, took 8 weeks for their fishless cycle, mistakes included etc.
[IMO the "randomizers" of time include the highly variable initial introduction of the starting bacterial population (after all, you are indeed relying on a few of the right bacteria to "be there" in your tap water (and indeed they are!), and the highly variable combinations of water parameters that people have in their tap water and tank environments and then their significantly variable actual behaviours with respect to testing, ammonia introductions and water changes etc.]
OK guys, if this was too boring to read, just move on over to "New to the Hobby" and keep asking questions. Luckily there are all sorts of members willing to communicate the info in many ways and one way is bound to suit you!
~~waterdrop~~ (recently returned to the hobby and having fun!)
I will try to follow the directions from this post as closely as possible letting the ammonia go down to 0 before adding to 4-5 ppm again. I also am using the API test kit and the ammonia card only goes to 4 & 8. It seems you have to guess a little but my guess would be better a little less than over in the ammonia department?. anyway maybe in 3 weeks or so my cycling will be complete, and thanks again for all the help from the forum. Great to get advice as a noobie as this looks easy but seems like it can be a little complicated, at least for a noobie.
it looks way too big and I'm sat about 1m from my screen with the resolution on 1440x900!!
