Fishless Cycling And Ammonia Out?

[KiltedCodeWarrior]

So, did I shoot myself in the foot? I am starting a 55 gallon tank I got off eBay, previously used to raise cichlids. I filled it on Tuesday evening and used Jungle Water Safe Plus to clean the tap water and on the back of the box it mentioned to use Jungl Ammonia Out during startup and water changes, so I threw that in as well. Now I am wondering, is that going to stop my tank from cycling? How long does the Ammonia out hang around or is it a one time reaction and I will be fine adding the ammonia to start the cycling.

Any help would be appreciated.

 

[mark.w.jones]

So, did I shoot myself in the foot? I am starting a 55 gallon tank I got off eBay, previously used to raise cichlids. I filled it on Tuesday evening and used Jungle Water Safe Plus to clean the tap water and on the back of the box it mentioned to use Jungl Ammonia Out during startup and water changes, so I threw that in as well. Now I am wondering, is that going to stop my tank from cycling? How long does the Ammonia out hang around or is it a one time reaction and I will be fine adding the ammonia to start the cycling.

Any help would be appreciated.

In short yes. Its not going to help. Your tank needs ammonia in order to encourage the growth of "ammonia eating" bacteria. Ammonia out / Ammo lock type products convert the ammonia into less harmful, non toxic forms. This is useful if you have a sudden ammonia spike and want to protect your fish but is not helpful if you are fishless cycling. Id consider emptying tank and starting again with ammonia solution as a source of ammonia.

 

[chardonnay1000]

I would suggest reading the pinned post on fishless cycling with a bottle of household ammonia...i am currenly losing fish left right and centre because of bad information on cycling. PS most little chemists sell it. hope this helps

 

[KiltedCodeWarrior]

Yeah, that is what I thought. Since the tank is still stabilizing from the initial fill, I might wait and test to see how everything looks. Got to get a good test kit tomorrow. Bought the 5-in-1 strips from Petsmart on an impulse and know that they are not the answer.

And I did read the post on fishless cycling. That is what I am planning on doing. I hate to dump it, 55 gallons and 30 feet to the nearest house drain, and I don't want to carry 12+ 5 gallon buckets!

Oh well, will get some pure ammonia in the AM and a test kit, then see if I can still do the fishless cycle. If I add ammonia and it does not immediately go to 0 I figure I should be OK for the fishless cycling.

 

[PaPeRo]

So, did I shoot myself in the foot? I am starting a 55 gallon tank I got off eBay, previously used to raise cichlids. I filled it on Tuesday evening and used Jungle Water Safe Plus to clean the tap water and on the back of the box it mentioned to use Jungl Ammonia Out during startup and water changes, so I threw that in as well. Now I am wondering, is that going to stop my tank from cycling? How long does the Ammonia out hang around or is it a one time reaction and I will be fine adding the ammonia to start the cycling.

Any help would be appreciated.

In short yes. Its not going to help. Your tank needs ammonia in order to encourage the growth of "ammonia eating" bacteria. Ammonia out / Ammo lock type products convert the ammonia into less harmful, non toxic forms. This is useful if you have a sudden ammonia spike and want to protect your fish but is not helpful if you are fishless cycling. Id consider emptying tank and starting again with ammonia solution as a source of ammonia.

I don't know about Jungle Ammonia Out but I know Ammo Lock does not remove ammonia so it's still there for the bacteria. Ammo Lock only detoxifies the ammonia. Also Ammo Lock does not change the readings on test kits eg it will still indicate the presence of ammonia after using Ammo Lock.

 

[KiltedCodeWarrior]

I don't know about Jungle Ammonia Out but I know Ammo Lock does not remove ammonia so it's still there for the bacteria. Ammo Lock only detoxifies the ammonia. Also Ammo Lock does not change the readings on test kits eg it will still indicate the presence of ammonia after using Ammo Lock.

But do you know how it detoxifies the ammonia? I would think that would be a chemical reaction and make the ammonia either something else, or unusable for the bacteria. Granted, I am not a biologist or chemist of any kind! And if it does that, then why don't we all ignors the nitrogen cycle and just detoxify the ammonia regularly with ammo-lock or the equivalent?

KCW... a newbie with more questions than fish!

 

[PaPeRo]

Ammo Lock cost money, Nitrifying bacteria are free.

http/aquariumpharm.com/en_us/faq/waterCh...try_ammonia.asp

To detoxify ammonia, use Aquarium Pharmaceuticals AMMO-LOCK to instantly lock up ammonia. AMMO-LOCK does not remove ammonia, it simply converts toxic ammonia to a non-toxic form. Ammonia test kits will still test positive for ammonia, even though it is non-toxic. The biological filter will then consume the non-toxic ammonia, converting it to nitrite (Nitrite is another toxic waste material which must be tested separately) and then to nitrate.

 

[Tommy Gunnz]

Ammonia lock and similar chemicals work by creating a bond with ammonia which results in much the same thing as chlorine does with ammonia. It is a 'quick fix' and does not really help things out, especially since some dechlor conditioners break these bonds down and back into chlorine. This is why most people try to avoid using a dechlor conditioner that also treats chlorimides as this results in actually added ammonia.

In my opinion and experience, it is best to do things more 'naturally' here and use only one chemical in a fish tank...dechlor conditioner. That is all I have used and I have tanks that can handle some very large increases of fish without even flinching in the water parameters.

 

[PaPeRo]

It is a 'quick fix' and does not really help things out, especially since some dechlor conditioners break these bonds down and back into chlorine.

Huh? Ammo Lock and chlorine has no relation to one another.

This is why most people try to avoid using a dechlor conditioner that also treats chlorimides as this results in actually added ammonia.

Huh? So you're saying it's better to leave the chloramines alone for it to poison the fish instead?

In my opinion and experience, it is best to do things more 'naturally' here and use only one chemical in a fish tank...dechlor conditioner. That is all I have used and I have tanks that can handle some very large increases of fish without even flinching in the water parameters.

Huh? The "natural" way is to let the tap water sit so the chlorine can evaporate. Unfortunately it does nothing to remove chloramines.

 

[Tommy Gunnz]

What is not clear? I can explain in more detail if you have spacific questions.

AmmoLock detoxifies ammonia by creating a chemical bond with ammonia, creating chlorimides.........this is also a treatment method for some city water systems (at least in the United States). This is an ok method because they are not toxic to humans, but when you add water with high chlorimides to a fish tank, and then treat the water with a dechlorination chemical (Jungle Water Safe Plus), the chlorine is removed from the water. This breaks down the chlorimides as well, leaving only the previously bonded ammonia in the water. This can be ok for well established tanks and elevated ammonia levels can been seen for a very short time. however, in an uncycled tank, the ammonia is left in the water and if using fish to cycle a tank, for example, this can be disastorus.

It is what I learned in chemistry...working on my Master's Degree right now.

 

[PaPeRo]

What you said doesn't make any sense. Tap water contains chlorine and/or chloramine. When you use declorinaters the chloramine (if it is present) is broken down into chlorine and ammonia. At that point the chlorine is removed by the dechlorinater leaving the TOXIC ammonia. If the tank is already cycled this small ammount of ammonia will be broken down by bacteria.

The purpose of Ammo Lock is to DETOXIFY this ammonia by converting it to another form of ammonia (ammonia has zero chlorine) that can still be used and broken down by bacteria. This new form of ammonia isn't broken up into chlorine and ammonia by declorinaters since it contains zero chlorine.

Working on my PhD...

 

[Tommy Gunnz]

PaPeRo,

Yes, you are right and that is what I am trying to get at...using some dechlorinators will also remove the chloramines in a water source. Chloramines are, in laymen's terms, just ammonia bonded with chlorine. This means that when some dechlorinators are used, chloramines are broken back down into chlorine and ammonia. The ammonia is what left in the tank however and the chlorine is removed.

So, I appologize for being unclear or misleading in anyway. I do agree wtih you PaPeRo and I am just trying to point out that using products like ammo lock or ammonia removers when trying to cycle a tank sort of defeats the purpose since the bacteria needs the ammonia to feed on. Or in other words...no ammonia = no bacteria (or at least a whole lot less bacteria). That is simply my point since in this situation, from what I understood when reading the origonal question, KiltedCodeWarrior is first asking how long the ammonia out product will work in the tank (i.e. take out or nutralize ammonia) and then second asks if they should put ammonia in the tank. To me, the use of the ammonia out can just be skipped since, from what it sounds like, there are no fish in the tank and the ammonia can be at a level that is toxic to fish, but this will help build the bacteria colony.

So, again, sorry if I was confusing. I am just one of those people who are of the opinon that using a bunch of chemicals and additives to a tank is usually not needed and not always worth the risk, especially with meds or algeacides. I think that this is especially true when trying to cycle a tank since there are so many products on the market that promise a faster cycle time or even an instantly cycled tank which, IMO is not always true.

 

[PaPeRo]

I agree about not adding a bunch of chemicals into a tank. During a fishless cycle you do not need or want to use stuff like Ammo Lock. Ammo Lock should only be used when there is a need to detoxify large amounts of ammonia while there are fish or other living animals in the tank.

 

[Tommy Gunnz]

Thanks for that vindication PaPeRo, or should I call you doctor? I also like the nice touch with you going back and editing your previous comments.

 

[Underwurlde]

Everything aside...

Adding chemicals to the water is not a good idea (apart from de-chlorinators of course). 99% odf the crap you see in pet stores is is just smoke screen & snake-oil - i.e. a waste of bloody money.

If I were you I'd simply empty that tank and start again. What have you got to loose? Also consider using seeded water from say a friend or a friendly LFS - this should considerably speed the cycling process up and you'll be happily adding fish in 2 weeks tops!

Andy