Fineas
New Member
Not wanting to rain on your parade, they were born to be eaten by predators. Which is more cruel, nature's intent or confiing them to an unatural glass prison?
Ken
Fishing..
- Thread starter Genesis
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Not wanting to rain on your parade, they were born to be eaten by predators. Which is more cruel, nature's intent or confiing them to an unatural glass prison?
Ken
richchappy
Fishaholic
I go fishing, and i enjoy it,
but i do not go to cause undue harm to the fish,
Mainly i go carp fishing, and we never kill the fish, the upmost care is taken to look after them and return them unharmed. visit my website www.freewebs.com/totalcarping that has got some vids i made and all include carp care sections, the use of unhooking mats and even antideptic for hook wounds when needed.
As an angler, we pay the enviromance angency for rod licences, this helps the upkeep of rivers, lakes etc. also the majority of anglers will not leave litter, and will tidy up other people mess.
There is just a few that set a bad example... But turning it around, how many people leave dog c*** around lakes and rivers etc.. loads in my experiance...
And just to confirm, i do occasionally go trout fishing, and if i am going to take it for the table, they are dispatched quickly with a firm knock on the head with a priest (heavy metal rod basically) so it is as quick as possible.
but i do not go to cause undue harm to the fish,
Mainly i go carp fishing, and we never kill the fish, the upmost care is taken to look after them and return them unharmed. visit my website www.freewebs.com/totalcarping that has got some vids i made and all include carp care sections, the use of unhooking mats and even antideptic for hook wounds when needed.
As an angler, we pay the enviromance angency for rod licences, this helps the upkeep of rivers, lakes etc. also the majority of anglers will not leave litter, and will tidy up other people mess.
There is just a few that set a bad example... But turning it around, how many people leave dog c*** around lakes and rivers etc.. loads in my experiance...
And just to confirm, i do occasionally go trout fishing, and if i am going to take it for the table, they are dispatched quickly with a firm knock on the head with a priest (heavy metal rod basically) so it is as quick as possible.
OP
OP
Genesis
If you're a cory and you know it clap your.. hands
Well I love fishing, my favourite hobby. And you cant help the Swans etc as you throw your bait out and hook out and they wont leave it alone. Annoying Vermin
i once hooked a swan by accident when it grabbed my bait, it didn't attempt to fly so i was able to very slowly pull it in to the bank where i sat across its back and was attempting to get the hook from its beak when an old woman came and started attacking me with her stick for trying to murder the swan
I love fishing, i don't freshwater fish much any more since i gave up the competition angling but i like to get down to the beach to fish whenever there is a good tide on a moonlit night. The picture of that fish with the blood pouring down its side is ridiculous, in 20 years of fishing I've never seen a fish bleed like that from being hooked, practically all freshwater fish are returned alive and no worse off for being caught, fish in commercial sport fisheries might be caught 3 or 4 times a week in the summer and still carry on feeding, and even in sport sea angling the majority of anglers practice catch and release only taking home one or two fish for their dinner.
You'll find that good fishermen do clean up after themselves and don't leave hooks and lines laying about, just as in fish keeping there are good people and bad people who don't give a damn about the environment and its these few bad ones who give us a bad press. I've got a cardboard box full of old line and jars full of old rusting hooks that i wont throw away because it can damage animals at the land fill sites. Anglers are the eyes and ears of the environment agency, fishermen are very tuned into the surroundings and are very often the first to notice pollution or other problems with the water ways and bank sides.
I agree with CFC, im an all round angler (sea, course, fly), like what cfc said MOST anglers WILL clean up after them by not leaving hooks line ect on the bank once they have finished. Iv'e been to many fisheries in wales and england which do have signs up saying that ' anyone found leaving any tackle or rubbish on the banks will be fined'. It is mostly kids who don't appreciate the wildlife around them that are irresponsible.
And also that picture of that ' i think a grass carp' is terrible, i don't think that has been done by a hook. It looks like they have hit the fish over the head to kill it for eating, which i think is ok if done propperly.
I myself take care of fish once caught, like handling them with wet hands. If i catch a reasonable sized carp that i want to weigh, i will have a bucket of water ready to keep the carp hydrated. So i don't think fishing is bad atall. ASLONG AS ITS DONE IN RESPECT TO THE FISH, as many anglers do nowa days.
kj23502
lazy dayz
[quote name=''genesis' post='1952206' date='Mar 22 2008, 07:25 PM']I think stabbing a fish through the mouth with a sharp metal hook then yanking it out into a suffocating atmosphere is cruel, tbh. 
[/quote]
Thank god your a homo sapien then!! So how do you think the wild caught fish feel that are for aquarists? Being caught by someone, shoved in a container, sometimes mailed 1/2 way around the world, put from one fish tank to another(depends on how many stops they make before they end up in a home aquarium). Do you think that's less barbaric? Oh yea and don't forget. When they die, they get eaten by the family pet or flushed down the toilet.
Also, all kinds of people put their aquarium fish in the wrong habitat and they get eaten or have stunted growth (which is detrimental in the end.)
I do love keeping fish and they are amazing creatures.....but IMHO fishing isn't too different than keeping them in the aqarium.
Oh, and you might say, "well what about the ones that have been bred in aquariums...they don't know what it's like in the wild." True. But the point is that some had to be caught to be bred
BTW, I am a fisherwoman and we get out several times a year(even ice fishing). Sometimes we catch and release, sometimes we keep them and put'em in a fish basket untile we're done. Then my hubby goes and cleans'em. BTW, we keep our fish basket in the lake water and tie it to the boat...way better than in a live well imo.
Hopefully we tie it good enough! !
[/quote]Thank god your a homo sapien then!! So how do you think the wild caught fish feel that are for aquarists? Being caught by someone, shoved in a container, sometimes mailed 1/2 way around the world, put from one fish tank to another(depends on how many stops they make before they end up in a home aquarium). Do you think that's less barbaric? Oh yea and don't forget. When they die, they get eaten by the family pet or flushed down the toilet.
Also, all kinds of people put their aquarium fish in the wrong habitat and they get eaten or have stunted growth (which is detrimental in the end.)
I do love keeping fish and they are amazing creatures.....but IMHO fishing isn't too different than keeping them in the aqarium.
Oh, and you might say, "well what about the ones that have been bred in aquariums...they don't know what it's like in the wild." True. But the point is that some had to be caught to be bred
BTW, I am a fisherwoman and we get out several times a year(even ice fishing). Sometimes we catch and release, sometimes we keep them and put'em in a fish basket untile we're done. Then my hubby goes and cleans'em. BTW, we keep our fish basket in the lake water and tie it to the boat...way better than in a live well imo.
Hopefully we tie it good enough!
!
OP
OP
Genesis
If you're a cory and you know it clap your.. hands
[quote name='kj23502' post='1952637' date='Mar 23 2008, 03:01 PM'][quote name=''genesis' post='1952206' date='Mar 22 2008, 07:25 PM']I think stabbing a fish through the mouth with a sharp metal hook then yanking it out into a suffocating atmosphere is cruel, tbh. [/quote]
Thank god your a homo sapien then!! So how do you think the wild caught fish feel that are for aquarists? Being caught by someone, shoved in a container, sometimes mailed 1/2 way around the world, put from one fish tank to another(depends on how many stops they make before they end up in a home aquarium). Do you think that's less barbaric? Oh yea and don't forget. When they die, they get eaten by the family pet or flushed down the toilet.[/quote]
I'm expressing my oppinion in relation to the way I treat my animals (fish). When mine die, they are not eaten by the family pet or flushed down the toilet. They are placed respectfully on the compost to become part of nature again.
At least when they are caught and moved into the aquarium trade they are not killed!!
I would never kill my fish, they're my pride and joy. Okay, some people may feed guppies and goldfish to other fish.
But I, personally, would never inflict any deliberate harm upon any animal whether fish, bird, reptile, insect, amphibian or mammal.
So yes, I do beleive that keeping my fish in great conditions in my aquariums is less barbaric than ramming a hooked spike of metal through their face and yanking them from the water.
[/quote]Thank god your a homo sapien then!! So how do you think the wild caught fish feel that are for aquarists? Being caught by someone, shoved in a container, sometimes mailed 1/2 way around the world, put from one fish tank to another(depends on how many stops they make before they end up in a home aquarium). Do you think that's less barbaric? Oh yea and don't forget. When they die, they get eaten by the family pet or flushed down the toilet.[/quote]
I'm expressing my oppinion in relation to the way I treat my animals (fish). When mine die, they are not eaten by the family pet or flushed down the toilet. They are placed respectfully on the compost to become part of nature again.
At least when they are caught and moved into the aquarium trade they are not killed!!
I would never kill my fish, they're my pride and joy. Okay, some people may feed guppies and goldfish to other fish.
But I, personally, would never inflict any deliberate harm upon any animal whether fish, bird, reptile, insect, amphibian or mammal.
So yes, I do beleive that keeping my fish in great conditions in my aquariums is less barbaric than ramming a hooked spike of metal through their face and yanking them from the water.
OP
OP
Genesis
If you're a cory and you know it clap your.. hands
http/highstrangeness.tv/articles/fishing.php
"Is Fishing Cruel?
Humans have long considered fish to be unintelligent creatures with little awareness and incapable of feeling pain. In most countries 'fishing' is considered to be a 'good sport' for adults as well as children. Being a commercial fisherman is thought to be a noble profession, despite that fact that commercial fishing is destroying the oceans.
What if fish were in reality intelligent creatures that not only felt pain but also had a sense of self and felt emotions? Would we still be so eager to kill and eat fish if we knew that they were not so different than us?
If a fisherman could be a fish for a day it is likely that his attitudes would change very quickly.
Science is finally starting to catch up to reality and is recognizing that fish are intelligent and sensitive creatures. Numerous studies at Universities have shown that despite their small brains fish do feel pain, are actually quite smart and do have emotional and social awareness.
Dr. Theresa Burt de Perera studied blind Mexican cave fish and found that the fish did more than merely avoid bumping into objects in their tank. They built a detailed map of their surroundings, memorizing the obstacles. Once stored in their brains, the fish used their "mental map" to spot changes in the obstacles around them - something beyond even hamsters.
Dr. Burt de Perera says that fish are underestimated. "The public perception of them is that they are pea-brained numbskulls that can't remember things for more than a few seconds. We're now finding that they are very capable of learning and remembering, and possess a range of cognitive skills that would surprise many people," she remarked in a recent interview.
Dr. Culum Brown at the University of Edinburgh found that Australian crimson spotted rainbowfish, which learned to escape from a net in their tank, remembered how they did it 11 months later which is equivalent to a human recalling a lesson learned 40 years ago.
Dr. Phil Gee at the University of Plymouth showed that fish can learn to distinguish between different shapes, colors and sounds and can tell time. In his research goldfish were placed in a bowl in which they were fed only when they pressed a lever. The fish rapidly learned that pressing the lever produced a food reward. Once the fish were trained to press the lever, researchers set up the lever to work for just one hour a day. The fish soon became wise to this, and learned to press the lever at the same time every day. The activity of the fish around the lever increased enormously just before the set hour when their food was dispensed. If no food came out, they stopped pressing the lever when the hour was up. This demonstrates that the goldfish not only had an awareness of time but also remembered their prior experience and knew that there was no point to keep pressing the lever.
This new research shows that the learning abilities of fish are comparable to land vertebrates and the processes of learning are strikingly similar to those of other vertebrates.
Aquarists knew all of this long ago because they observe their fish and care for them on a daily basis. Most serious aquarists develop bonds with their fish and quickly realize that fish are sensitive and intelligent creatures.
Dr. Dean Pomerleau and his son Kyle run a school to teach aquarium fish tricks. In the process they have learned just how smart fish really are.
The have trained a pet goldfish to "carry" a football, "shoot" a soccer ball into a net and even "dance" the limbo.
There are over 27,000 known species of fish, more than all the other vertebrates combined. Fish are also the most ancient of the major vertebrate groups. The fish world is substantially larger and more complex than the world of land-dwellers.
Humans are not always the most clever species. In an experiment conducted at the University of Cologne in 1984, various hungry animals were required to perform a simple response in order to receive food. Mammals pressed a lever, birds pecked a disc and fish pushed a rod. Human infants took 28 attempts, whereas rabbits only took 24, chickens took 10, koi carp took 4 and bees took only 2 attempts before learning the connection. To be a true comparison of species intelligence the study should have included adult humans as well, however, it does show that animals and insects are more intelligent than we might suppose.
Fish, like many of Earth's creatures, are endangered from human activity. Species are becoming extinct before we even discover them and vast tracts of the Ocean are becoming dead zones. The rape of the oceans in pursuit of fish not only impacts fish populations but entire eco-systems.
If a being is intelligent and feels pain is it wrong to torture it for sport as in fishing? Is it wrong to kill it and eat it if one's own survival isn't dependent upon it?
Fish - aware, sensitive and intelligent
Do humans have the right to destroy other species and the planet?"
/highstrangeness.tv/articles/fishing.php"Is Fishing Cruel?
Humans have long considered fish to be unintelligent creatures with little awareness and incapable of feeling pain. In most countries 'fishing' is considered to be a 'good sport' for adults as well as children. Being a commercial fisherman is thought to be a noble profession, despite that fact that commercial fishing is destroying the oceans.
What if fish were in reality intelligent creatures that not only felt pain but also had a sense of self and felt emotions? Would we still be so eager to kill and eat fish if we knew that they were not so different than us?
If a fisherman could be a fish for a day it is likely that his attitudes would change very quickly.
Science is finally starting to catch up to reality and is recognizing that fish are intelligent and sensitive creatures. Numerous studies at Universities have shown that despite their small brains fish do feel pain, are actually quite smart and do have emotional and social awareness.
Dr. Theresa Burt de Perera studied blind Mexican cave fish and found that the fish did more than merely avoid bumping into objects in their tank. They built a detailed map of their surroundings, memorizing the obstacles. Once stored in their brains, the fish used their "mental map" to spot changes in the obstacles around them - something beyond even hamsters.
Dr. Burt de Perera says that fish are underestimated. "The public perception of them is that they are pea-brained numbskulls that can't remember things for more than a few seconds. We're now finding that they are very capable of learning and remembering, and possess a range of cognitive skills that would surprise many people," she remarked in a recent interview.
Dr. Culum Brown at the University of Edinburgh found that Australian crimson spotted rainbowfish, which learned to escape from a net in their tank, remembered how they did it 11 months later which is equivalent to a human recalling a lesson learned 40 years ago.
Dr. Phil Gee at the University of Plymouth showed that fish can learn to distinguish between different shapes, colors and sounds and can tell time. In his research goldfish were placed in a bowl in which they were fed only when they pressed a lever. The fish rapidly learned that pressing the lever produced a food reward. Once the fish were trained to press the lever, researchers set up the lever to work for just one hour a day. The fish soon became wise to this, and learned to press the lever at the same time every day. The activity of the fish around the lever increased enormously just before the set hour when their food was dispensed. If no food came out, they stopped pressing the lever when the hour was up. This demonstrates that the goldfish not only had an awareness of time but also remembered their prior experience and knew that there was no point to keep pressing the lever.
This new research shows that the learning abilities of fish are comparable to land vertebrates and the processes of learning are strikingly similar to those of other vertebrates.
Aquarists knew all of this long ago because they observe their fish and care for them on a daily basis. Most serious aquarists develop bonds with their fish and quickly realize that fish are sensitive and intelligent creatures.
Dr. Dean Pomerleau and his son Kyle run a school to teach aquarium fish tricks. In the process they have learned just how smart fish really are.
The have trained a pet goldfish to "carry" a football, "shoot" a soccer ball into a net and even "dance" the limbo.
There are over 27,000 known species of fish, more than all the other vertebrates combined. Fish are also the most ancient of the major vertebrate groups. The fish world is substantially larger and more complex than the world of land-dwellers.
Humans are not always the most clever species. In an experiment conducted at the University of Cologne in 1984, various hungry animals were required to perform a simple response in order to receive food. Mammals pressed a lever, birds pecked a disc and fish pushed a rod. Human infants took 28 attempts, whereas rabbits only took 24, chickens took 10, koi carp took 4 and bees took only 2 attempts before learning the connection. To be a true comparison of species intelligence the study should have included adult humans as well, however, it does show that animals and insects are more intelligent than we might suppose.
Fish, like many of Earth's creatures, are endangered from human activity. Species are becoming extinct before we even discover them and vast tracts of the Ocean are becoming dead zones. The rape of the oceans in pursuit of fish not only impacts fish populations but entire eco-systems.
If a being is intelligent and feels pain is it wrong to torture it for sport as in fishing? Is it wrong to kill it and eat it if one's own survival isn't dependent upon it?
Fish - aware, sensitive and intelligent
Do humans have the right to destroy other species and the planet?"
andywg
Bored into leaving
Careful as you head into whether fish feel pain or not. Fish do not have the part of the brain used in mammals to feel the psychological side of pain. They have pain receptors that allow nociception (the avoiding of things that cause pain) but they don't even have the area of the brain to deal with the psychological side of actual pain.
While there are studies that indicate fish can learn to avoid things that cause them harm, there is no research that can actually state it proves fish feel pain. There is a Scottish doctor who has done some interesting work and she feels she will soon prove that fish feel pain, but considering how subjective pain is (we only know it exists in other humans because they tell us) I am unsure if it will ever be possible to "prove" pain is suffered by fish.
While there are studies that indicate fish can learn to avoid things that cause them harm, there is no research that can actually state it proves fish feel pain. There is a Scottish doctor who has done some interesting work and she feels she will soon prove that fish feel pain, but considering how subjective pain is (we only know it exists in other humans because they tell us) I am unsure if it will ever be possible to "prove" pain is suffered by fish.
Ace Of Spades
Fish Gatherer
It is mostly kids who don't appreciate the wildlife around them that are irresponsible.
[/quote]
That is stereotyping, MOST kids that fish do care about the enviroment and enjoy getting out fishing a clearing up after themselves. Ive seen many more as you would class "Responsible Adults" Leaving crap behind like Spliffs, Cigarettes Bears cans. Its not fair to sterotype "Kids" just because you think they are irresponsible, me and my friends are responsible anglers.
[/quote]
That is stereotyping, MOST kids that fish do care about the enviroment and enjoy getting out fishing a clearing up after themselves. Ive seen many more as you would class "Responsible Adults" Leaving crap behind like Spliffs, Cigarettes Bears cans. Its not fair to sterotype "Kids" just because you think they are irresponsible, me and my friends are responsible anglers.
All animals and living things feel pain but it is interpreted differently among different species. Most animals rely on adrenalin to overcome the pain but primates don't, and as such tend to go into shock when injured.
kj23502
lazy dayz
Thank god your a homo sapien then!! So how do you think the wild caught fish feel that are for aquarists? Being caught by someone, shoved in a container, sometimes mailed 1/2 way around the world, put from one fish tank to another(depends on how many stops they make before they end up in a home aquarium). Do you think that's less barbaric? Oh yea and don't forget. When they die, they get eaten by the family pet or flushed down the toilet.[/quote]I think stabbing a fish through the mouth with a sharp metal hook then yanking it out into a suffocating atmosphere is cruel, tbh.
I'm expressing my oppinion in relation to the way I treat my animals (fish). When mine die, they are not eaten by the family pet or flushed down the toilet. They are placed respectfully on the compost to become part of nature again.
At least when they are caught and moved into the aquarium trade they are not killed!!
I would never kill my fish, they're my pride and joy. Okay, some people may feed guppies and goldfish to other fish.
But I, personally, would never inflict any deliberate harm upon any animal whether fish, bird, reptile, insect, amphibian or mammal.
So yes, I do beleive that keeping my fish in great conditions in my aquariums is less barbaric than ramming a hooked spike of metal through their face and yanking them from the water.
[/quote]
I'm basically referring to the part where they capture and ship the wild ones all over the world as the barbaric part!!! Scaring the crap out of them...which is part of the reason why quite a few do die!!! some from stress and also a few from less than ideal conditions. After all, noone can replicate nature exactly. The wc fish just learn to adapt (some of the time unless they die because they are having a hard time adapting.) I'm sure this would be pretty traumatizing.
tropicalgirl2007
Fishaholic
Quoting myself
Is this not the "circle of life"?
Im pretty sure those baby antelope don't want to be eaten by the lions! Shall we start catching all animals/fish/creatures that MIGHT (WILL) be eaten? just asking.
Playing Devils Advocate....
For those of you that disagree with fishing..
Do you really beleive that fish belong in a tank in your living room, bedroom etcetc?
Just spicing up the debate.
Is this not the "circle of life"?
Im pretty sure those baby antelope don't want to be eaten by the lions! Shall we start catching all animals/fish/creatures that MIGHT (WILL) be eaten? just asking.
OP
OP
Genesis
If you're a cory and you know it clap your.. hands
No, but I'm saying that there are benefits of keeping fish in aquaria.
As many people here are making out that it's a torturous thing to do, thus being hypocritical themselves.
I'm merely saying that there are also benefits of fishkeeping.
Not that all endangered animals should be captured and kept from being eaten; that's just silly.
As many people here are making out that it's a torturous thing to do, thus being hypocritical themselves.
I'm merely saying that there are also benefits of fishkeeping.
Not that all endangered animals should be captured and kept from being eaten; that's just silly.
I don't see how keeping fish in an aquarium is torture, unnatural yes but certainly not torture. Fish in aquariums can be happy, and even breed which I don't think they'd do unless they were happy. Being on the sharp end of a hook and dragged through the water is a totally different matter (I don't think the fish would breed then ).
Thats if I understand your point (fishkeeping is torture to fish just like fishing is).
).Thats if I understand your point (fishkeeping is torture to fish just like fishing is).
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