Fish Continue To Die - Established Tank - Need Advice

[eaglesaquarium]

The more I read of this, the more I think that this is a case of old tank syndrome.

 

[jeffsfish25]

what is the definition of old tank syndrome and what basically happens? Please note the tank is only 4-5 years old

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Old tank syndrome is when a tank has had insufficient water changes over a period of years (4-5 years is plenty of time to meet that requirement), and nitrates and other "nasties" start to build up in the tank.  New fish being placed into a tank like this have very little chance of acclimating to the water - but the fish in the tank have grown accustomed to it and manage to live, but are weakened by it, so that any minor disturbance (like ich) that they may have been capable of handling previously becomes that much more serious.
 
 
50% monthly is not a sufficient water change schedule, imho.  I don't know exactly what your water stats are, as you haven't been able to provide them, but I'd be willing to wager that the pH is a good bit lower than your tap water, and your nitrates are elevated. 
 
Personally, I like 20-30% weekly, in addition to 50% monthly and even a 75+% change every 6 months.  The only "cure" for old tank syndrome is a LOT of very small water changes very frequently.  I'm talking about 10% daily or every other day for about two weeks.  Then, increase that to 20% daily or every other day.   Ultimately, the goal for fishkeepers is to try to keep the water in the tank as close to the tap conditions as possible so that you can do a massive water change whenever something goes wrong.  However, if the tank has been under changed for a period, large water changes can actually be more dangerous than they are beneficial - as the new water is so different from the old tank.
 
 
That's my assessment of what I've been able to glean.  I am assuming as well, that the LFS that is testing the water is using "strips" rather than a liquid kit.  Generally when a LFS is testing your water, they use the cheapest alternative - which would be strips - and they nearly never share the actual values with the customer, but just use general terms like "normal" or "ok" which is actually meaningless.  It is far more important to know the levels of you water so that you know how close it is to your tap.  "Normal" and "ok" don't mean a thing in terms of determining if your tank water and tap water are still very close.   "Normal" is a broad term, because most fish can survive (and even thrive) in a wide array of water chemistries, if given time to acclimate (weeks or months) but not if forced to do so quickly (hours/weeks).

 

[jeffsfish25]

Thank you for all the good information.
 
I would say that I probably have done a 50% water change monthly for the last 5 years with no issues.
I might do a 30% water change in between if I notice a spike in waste or algae levels, but keeping the tank pretty clean.
 
The latest introduction was 4 new fish
Pleco Algae Eater (2)
Tetra Red Eye (2)
 
The algae eaters (small) to replace an old one that died and 2 tetras (replacement) that died 3months ago
 
The specific levels for ammonia, nitrate and pH were all checked with actually water samples using the liquid tests.
We did the tests two times and even tested the ph balance on the tap water to compare the difference.
 
 
 
 

 

[This Old Spouse]

Do your cichlids look anything like this?
 

 

[jeffsfish25]

no they are long skinny and completely see through.
I have had them in the tank for 2 years, only 1 left.

 

[N0body Of The Goat]

I'm struggling to mentally picture a completely transparent cichlid, the only transparent fish I know of are glassfish; the "glass catfish" species complex including B. minor and a recently described type; "Debauwi catfish"; a recent strain of X-ray Tetras. Not to say there are not more, they are the ones that immediately spring to mind and cichlids are not one of fishkeeping fortes (I only have two variants of Steatocranus spp. or "Blockhead").
 
We really need a photo that you have uploaded to a site like Imageshack and then embedded in a post here.
 
If this is indeed "old tank syndrome," could the fish not be saved by emptying ~75% of the water and then dripping heavily Seachem Prime dosed (as in the maximum 5x standard dose, so 25ml per 200 litres) fresh water slowly back into the tank over the next 24 hours?

 

[the_lock_man]

I'm not convinced that it is OTS. Can't think what it is, mind, which I realise isn't helpful.
 
I'm with you Goat, I can't think of anything cichlid that's transparent. Glass catfish is all I could think of too.
 
Jeff, is this what you've got?
 

 

[eaglesaquarium]

I'm not 100% convinced that it is OTS either, but it seems to fit better than ich, etc.
 
 
Goat,
 
I don't think that a big water change is the best course of action with OTS.  The fish need time to acclimate to the new water conditions and rapid changes in the chemistry will be a problem for them.  I've seen a study where zebra danios were dissected after being exposed to drastically different water parameters, and it took basically 7 days for their bodies to adjust.  I think that it would be best to more slowly change the water parameters.  I don't think Prime would do much other than deal with ammonia or nitrite, but not the other parameters of the water - most of which we can't actually test for.
 
 
Jeff,
 
I'd be curious what the TDS (total dissolved solids) might be for both the tank and the tap water.  Also, to know the pH of both.  You keep referencing that the levels were all "fine", but that's not a lot to go on.  Specific numbers for these parameters are far more useful than general terms like fine and normal.

 

[jeffsfish25]

Yes the_lock_man that is the fish I had.
The tank is failing and I am now down to 2 fish.
 
I am just going to have to wait till the last ones die and then start over.
 
Thoughts on a restart? Start with new materials?
 
Lava Rock vs Wood?
New gravel?
New Plants?
Scrub tank walls?
 
Thanks everyone, I think this tank is a lost cause.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

I wouldn't go too crazy on the restart... Just empty all the water out - And I'd empty the gravel out and rinse it thoroughly to remove all the detritus that's accumulated.  I don't see a need for too much "new" stuff like plants, etc. unless you are going to go in a completely different direction with the fish.

 

[the_lock_man]

Yes the_lock_man that is the fish I had.
The tank is failing and I am now down to 2 fish.
 
I am just going to have to wait till the last ones die and then start over.
 
Thoughts on a restart? Start with new materials?
 
Lava Rock vs Wood?
New gravel?
New Plants?
Scrub tank walls?
 
Thanks everyone, I think this tank is a lost cause.

 
OK, that is a glass catfish, then, not a cichlid.
 
I think it's a shame that you feel the tank is a lost cause. I actually think Goat's idea was a good one (and Eagles, I think you misunderstood what he was saying to do), whether it's OTS or not, I think a big but gradual water change would be a good idea.