Fish And Temperature Changes

[eaglesaquarium]

You know, I've always dripped my cories, and never had a problem with it (anecdotal, of course).  I've never lost a cory during acclimation, but then again, I've never had a cory in a plastic bag for longer than 2.5 hours.  (I got my pandas from That Fish Place in Lancaster, PA - and drove them home.)  That's the longest they've been in a bag.  My other cories were from LFS.

 

[Mamashack]

I'm definitely going to try the drip method when I get my male betta when the 30L tank has cycled. I've previously done the plop and drop method, not through any particular choice - in my ignorance I simply hadn't realised there was another way to do it

  but I'm learning!

I'm sure a male betta would be more fragile than the platies I have in my main tank and don't want to cause any more stress than necessary.

 

[snazy]

As it relates to temperature changes and fish just what are we trying to define scientifically? That they can tolerate fast temperature changes? That they need slower changes? They can tolerate going from colder to warmer but not the other way around...or the other way around they can tolerate going from warmer to colder? Etc. What is the goal of this thread in relation to fish and temperature changes since that's the stated topic?

 
What I am trying to show is that floating the bag to temperature match as a first step is just a waste of time and possiblty more stress, and even dangerous and I am totally against plop and drop based on my anecdotal experience. If used as a first step in drip acclimation, it is useless too, because I would have equaled the temperature of the bag to the tank, then I would have dripped acclimated as long as it takes(in this case long enough) which would have dropped the temperature down again due to the time it takes, and then it would have raised it up again gradually due to increasing the drip halfway through. So what's the point floating those critters and let other fish scare the hell out of them by trying to see who are the new guys?
 I didn't like what I saw and how the fish reacted inside the bag when I was using the other popula acclimation.  Hence I always mention watch the fish, they tell you how they feel, no science needed for that. The fish perk up during drip acclimation normally and I saw that happening again.
 
P.S.
The video just finished uploading, so here it is. I normally net the fish out in the dark but I left the lights on only to record the ottos to show what they did after being netted into the tank, literally minutes after being acclimated:
 
http/www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_4cS6m5wcE


And that's them in the bag just before I moved them to the bucket. Plenty of poop
 

 

[Chad]

You know, I've always dripped my cories, and never had a problem with it (anecdotal, of course).  I've never lost a cory during acclimation, but then again, I've never had a cory in a plastic bag for longer than 2.5 hours.  (I got my pandas from That Fish Place in Lancaster, PA - and drove them home.)  That's the longest they've been in a bag.  My other cories were from LFS.

I have done both. I started dripping after I lost a few and I did some research on them. I learned that they produce a toxin when stressed. If they make it from the store to your house with minimal stress then there's not a problem. If the LFS employee isn't very good at capturing them then this can be enough. Again for my reef fish some form of slower acclimation is almost always required due to salinity differences. It's been hard for me to discuss this without including reef fish. As I stated earlier and in the other thread on this topic I mostly do quick acclimation of FW fish that I have experienced as hardy. I slow acclimate my micro fish, ottos, cory, dwarf puffers, scarlet badis, but not platy.
 
Why I do that has to do with my experiences. I agree with snazy above that observation of the fish and our own experience will guide us well. In the other thread on this topic talking experiences is great but since this is in the science section it requires that our experiences be documented, tested, and understood in a larger context.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Most definitely.  My concern is that no documentation has been provided that drip acclimation is a "bad" thing.  In fact, the research showed that the (North American) fish did quite well at a temp change rate of 0.3C/min.  Drip acclimation is able to provide that, or slower, and with a little bit of practice it could easily be done as snazy has pointed out in her method description.
 
So, arguing against "drip" in favor of "plop and drop" based on temperature acclimation doesn't really seem to have any basis, at least not in the presented article.  Personally, I'd rather match natural conditions, and for the majority of the year I strongly suspect that temp variation for tropical species is rather slow.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Nothing scientific, but who would ever want to keep Otocinclus cocama?
 

 

 
That was a Montezuma sword and bn pleco breeding tank at that tine of the pic. the tank came down years ago.

 

[snazy]

Personally, just because I am being careful normally, I don't like experimenting with temperatures too or anything, unless something doesn't work or something goes wrong.
For example, I change 50% water weekly and my thermometer(digital) rarely showed more than 0.5-1C difference as I use the hot water too in the tap(via a python) and I like keeping it that way because that's too short of a period, so no anecdotal experience with rapid temperature change besides a few shrimp who made it with no issues.
But because I can't concentrate sometimes, I've left the heaters off so many times after a water change, I can't count how many times, all my tanks.  It did take gradual change as it always took me a day to notice(when I had to feed them the day after), but the funny thing was that the "tropical" fish didn't show any signs of distress at such low temperatures and the fish were swimming around as if nothing happened regardless of a drop from 25-27-ish depending on tank, to below 20-ish(around 19-20 normally) The only reason I noticed was because when I put the food in, my hand got cold...So far, all my negligence didn't even lead to a secondary issue, like a disease or similar and I was lucky. I am thankful for that. But the last couple of times I did it, I just didn't even blink when I found out, plugged the heaters back on and forgot all about it.
This is totally anecdotal, but still gives a small insight at least to which degree clown loaches, corys, plecos, platies, guppies, beta, otos, and shrimp can still be ok, when the drop in temperature is so gradual, and doesn't always lead to a disaster.
 
And about just droping fish in tanks,  I do that between my tanks with any fish(even with my ottos) but then the parameters are identical and temperature difference is max 2-3C  so there's totally no need. Now I just setup a tank with soil, so I am expecting a totally different story with the parameters there, so I'll probably acclimate any fish I move but then I don't expect it to take 3hrs.
 
P.S. I hate my lenghty posts. I would undestand why someone would skip and don't read and I think I need to learn to stop rambling..

Nothing scientific, but who would ever want to keep Otocinclus cocama?

 
I would I don't even know what the proper name for my new ones is.
I am glad you are back.Without you we wouldn't have had such a lenghty discussion over this  Clash of opinions isn't a bad thing always as long as everyone learns not to take anything personally, and realizes this is a learning experience for all, and we can never know enough.

 

[snazy]

Just because I am lazy but are there any other zebra otos, that aren't "otocinclus cocama"? Or I can be certain that's what I got?

 

[snazy]

Nothing scientific, but who would ever want to keep Otocinclus cocama?
 

 

 
That was a Montezuma sword and bn pleco breeding tank at that tine of the pic. the tank came down years ago.

 
By the way TTA, did you try to feed them at some point in their life?

I'll see what the zebra ottos will do to my plants but I can assure you my bristlenose pleco won't refuse a munch on some swords. But if I was able to figure how to stopthe clown loaches from totally destroying the plants, then I am not too worried these guys.

 

[Chad]

So, arguing against "drip" in favor of "plop and drop" based on temperature acclimation doesn't really seem to have any basis, at least not in the presented article. 

Absolutely true. That's why I listed all the other parameters earlier in the thread. If we want to keep this thread to the narrow issue of fish and temperature we can certainly do that but temperature is only one variable when it comes to acclimation.

 

[snazy]

Totally unrelated guys. But the lights came on and I went to have a look at the tank with the zebra ottos. I dropped food for the fish and then I see the ottos flying from the glass coming over for food like there's no tomorrow. I just saw them swallowing catfish micro pellets, munching on an algae wafer and playing like kids around the place. I've got 3 normal ottos that I've had for probably 6 months and I've never ever seen them eating prepared food of any kind, even veg.
 
And just a short clip
http/www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNiGXzFVmMM

 

[TwoTankAmin]

As far as I know only the cocama is called a zebra. The damage to those plants was from bn. Of course ther are something in the neighborhood of 45-50 different species of oto listed on Planet Catfish.
 
I am back but not to post any science any more. I really should stay out of this thread from now on.
 
Anecdotally, I had a tank hit 105F (40.5C) due to heater malfunction (I assume the heater was accurate to +/- 5 F or less). The discus died, the tetras turned to mush but all 8 Hypancistrus L-450 survived. Not only that but they began spawning soon after. to date they have given me about 100+ fry. After discovering it all I dropped the temp by 15-20 F in 15 minutes or so.
 
Anecdotally, I typically work to trigger my plecos to spawn by dropping temps by even more than 15F rapidly. I wonder  how many people would try this with a fish that cost them a few $100 if it were a fatal practice? Tangentially, I have dropped the pH in my Altum tank by 1 full point in under 3 minutes using muriatic acid and a digitital pH meter to test. Considering what it take to get these fish and to keep them alive in tanks, who would do this sort of drop if it killed the fish? And not only do these practices not kill these fish, it appears not to cause any harm I am able to discern. Now I have only had my breeding zebras long enough for some of them to be about 10 years old maybe 12. Since they live a long time, a breeder i know has a 20 year old male that still spawns. So my fish have a ways to go before I can say they lived close to a normal lifespan or they did not.
 
If I manage to outlive them, I will come back and post about it.