Fish and Humans

[Landlocked]

Haha, I do that with spiders too! Even the ones with fat hairy bodies. To elaborate a little on my discussion, I believe some people value their pets more than humans simply because they are safe. No compromises, no backtalk, no betrayals, and on and on. And, when it comes right down to it, one can pretty much end their lives if you wanted, but that would be rather awful to do for no purpose.

I agree. You can complain to your fish all that you want, and they won't get up and leave!

 

[wuvmybetta]

But hey...what do I know, I could turn into the "crazy old lady down the street" in fifty years. Kids might run by my house crying "it's the crazy betta lady" I'll sit on my front porch and cackle and flare.

HAHAHA. Oh man wuv, we should have a little retirement apartment for ourselves, then we can have bettas in every window, and we can wear red ruffly coats special for flaring! It's much more fun to have TWO crazy betta ladies, the kids will give us double the wide berth from the porch... MUHAHAHA.

 

[FanOFish]

Well, I see that the scales are quite weighted on the side of animals over humans so far. Although I value my many fish and my dog, I do not view them as family or would replace human companionship with animal companionship, nor even equate them as comparable. Do you folks who value animals as much as you have expressed, have children? In my anecdotal experience, it seems that those who hold the above perspective, generally do not. Feel free to express yourself quite honestly as I enjoy a stimulating discourse and hope that you do as well.

Abernathy.....
I won't leave you out there alone. I value the life of humans soooooooooooo much more than pets I can't even tell you.

I have a great golden retriever that is now ten and I would hate to lose her but when I do, the grief won't even compare to losing a family member of the human persuasion.

With regards to fish.....I try my best to provide them a healthy environment. Good food, clean water, free from predetors, etc. However, when a fish dies I can't say that I have any grieving to go through.

I think some of the difference may be due to the fact that I am an adult male with wife and children as opposed to my wonderful but somewhat emotional friends out there or teenagers. Please don't take either as a slam I have two teenagers and know who they react to certain things and I also accept the difference between men and women when it comes to emotions.

Ok....I'm braced for the arrows, go ahead let the firing begin

 

[Chris_JT]

i agree with fanofish, i dont "grieve" when i lose a fish. when my dog died however i cried like a 12 year old girl. fish are cool but in no way do they compare even to a dog. anyone who grieves more over an animals death than a humans has issues.

 

[HeatherSweetness]

anyone who grieves more over an animals death than a humans has issues.

Well,even tho I was beginning to think I had issues crying when my first betta died for 2 days I guess I don't...I lost my grandma on xmas day back in '94 and I cried every other day for nearly 6 years. She was the first one I was close to that I had lost. When my dog died I grieved hard for awhile,but it got better much faster. I guess I'm not overly emotional about my critters.

 

[FanOFish]

anyone who grieves more over an animals death than a humans has issues.

Well,even tho I was beginning to think I had issues crying when my first betta died for 2 days I guess I don't...I lost my grandma on xmas day back in '94 and I cried every other day for nearly 6 years. She was the first one I was close to that I had lost. When my dog died I grieved hard for awhile,but it got better much faster. I guess I'm not overly emotional about my critters.

See, I think we just need to put it all into perspective. Now everyone go hug your favorite Betta and we will put this string to rest...

 

[crimsontsavo]

This is the way I see it.

If I had to choose between my wolf or fish and say my sister- I'd pick my sister. (in bad situations,life threatning.)

If I had to choose between my wolf/fish and a worthless (very bad needs to be shot) human- I'd pick my animals.

My kids- will always come first.

Animals are not human- though, some humans arent worthy enough to be compared to animals.


On the grand scale- Animals ARE more innocent than humans. Simply because they are not humans,lol. They arent cruel for no reason/etc.

But, most times- humans come first in my book.

Although-- I DID breakup with countless men because of my animals...
They didnt want to have them- and I wont give them up.

For some people, all they have are their animals. Animals understand and don't normally judge.
They will give their lives to protect you.

Even wild animals have been known to protect humans...

 

[FanOFish]

This is the way I see it.

If I had to choose between my wolf or fish and say my sister- I'd pick my sister. (in bad situations,life threatning.)

If I had to choose between my wolf/fish and a worthless (very bad needs to be shot) human- I'd pick my animals.

My kids- will always come first.

Animals are not human- though, some humans arent worthy enough to be compared to animals.


On the grand scale- Animals ARE more innocent than humans. Simply because they are not humans,lol. They arent cruel for no reason/etc.

But, most times- humans come first in my book.

Although-- I DID breakup with countless men because of my animals...
They didnt want to have them- and I wont give them up.

For some people, all they have are their animals. Animals understand and don't normally judge.
They will give their lives to protect you.

Even wild animals have been known to protect humans...

Glad to see you would pick your family over your animals

I agree, I would pick an animal over a very bad person that needed to be shot..but that's not really fair is it? How about a really bad animal?

Animals are more innocent than humans because they are not as smart as humans. You can't even compare our brain power with that of a dog...even the smartest dog is stupid compared to humans.....

Besides, how does anyone really know what the intentions are of animals; how do we know they don't do mean things to other animals just because? How about a fish example: I know that if you put a gold fish into a tank with a Black Pirrana, the pirrana will kill the gold fish just like that....not to eat, just to kill it.....

 

[crimsontsavo]

Well,

The way I see it-

Each animal has it's own territory. Lemme add wolves as an example.

Wolves live together in a pack.

You have two alphas- Male. Female.

It's normally the Alphas that breed and rear pups.

If other wolves from another pack come into our packs territory, then they stand the chance of being killed.

Too many wolves in one area will put a stain on deer/moose/elk populations.

The attacking other wolves is to keep their territory safe.


Then again,

Chimps have been known to raid and eat baby baboons- for no "apparent" reason.

Then yet again,
Chimps are NOT strictly vegetarians. So- they need that meat to help suppliment their diets.

Your fish may see the goldfish as competition to his food source/breeding territory,etc.


Doesnt mean he/she is acting to be mean though. Nor does it mean he isnt.

Then again, I am not God- so, who's to REALLY say what goes through anythings mind.


In all of my 21 years on this earth and dealing with all sorts of animals.
I have never seen a MEAN animal. I have seen animals act on their instincts for survival- but not meaness.
I have seen Pitts that were conditioned to fight or die- but, after a loving touch and much time they calm down and loose their aggressive fear.

I DO believe an animal CAN have mental problems that makes them act crazy and mean.


I say these things based on years of experiance with both animals and humans alike.

When dealing with animals, and people too-
I find it best to stand back, study quietly and just let it go.
Learn from what you see, and compare it to what you thought you knew.
You may very well be surprised.
Ahh yes, *makes that my quote*.

 

[staredecisis]

Okay wuvmybetta and juliethegr8t bout made me spit out my soda

From my viewpoint, I will always keep in mind that humans ARE animals. We are NOT separate. Our only difference is that we are intelligent enough to be self-aware. We've already established that gorillas are intelligent enough to learn thousands and thousands of words in sign language, and that they can communicate sentences with them. It is simply their vocal chords that keep them from advancing as far as we have. Communication allows for pooled knowledge, to be passed down, rather than lost. Imagine if gorillas could learn everything gorillas before them had learned. They'd develope just as we have.

I would never allow family or friends to be killed to save any pet. That is madness.

However, speaking for innocence and cruelty, I believe both humans and animals are centered around self interest. The human range of emotion is just more complicated than that of an animal. This means that a human can be MORE cruel, or MORE compassionate than an animal, but we both possess these same states of mind.

You cannot call a fish killing another fish and not eating it, as malice, because the fish is not even self aware, let alone aware of other beings or what life is. But, the human range of emotional cruelty can reach levels of absolute malice. Cruelty without self-interest. Reasonless cruelty. I do not believe an animal is capable of this.

But on this same token, I am not entirely sure animals are capable of the same level of selflessness that people are. I have seen animals with compassion for their owners, that would indeed die for their master. However, this same dog would not die for any general human, or another dog. The levels of human compassion can reach levels of complete selflessness. People that give their efforts and even lives, for others, even strangers, or animals.

In the end, all that separates us is the ability to transfer pooled knowledge, which has lead us to understand life to a better extent, and possess intellectual levels of emotion.

Sorry for the long winded post, but I truly believe that animals deserve more rights than they currently possess. Obviously they are not humans, and shouldn't possess citizenship or the right to vote But they do feel, and they do feel pain. And I believe they should have the right not to suffer unnecessarily.

 

[noop]

We've already established that gorillas are intelligent enough to learn thousands and thousands of words in sign language, and that they can communicate sentences with them.....

the sentences that some primates have been able to communicate in sign language are very, very basic. humans have an innate ability to understand grammar, primates don't. this difference goes far beyond the existence of vocal chords

i was reading an article just hours ago in which some scientists were saying that actually the 'higher' primates aren't in fact any more intelligent than a lot of other animals in many situations. they have even experimented with guppies looking for food in mazes and concluded that their behaviour - if seen in primates - would be considered 'really clever'!

(and i always thought my guppies were really dumb)

 

[wuvmybetta]

That was an awesome article noop!

 

[staredecisis]

the sentences that some primates have been able to communicate in sign language are very, very basic. humans have an innate ability to understand grammar, primates don't. this difference goes far beyond the existence of vocal chords

Have to realize, the primates learning language are first generation and last generation. The advanced understanding of grammar and many other things, are due to human intelligence, which has had a loooong time to develope as such. But I believe the origination of language is the foundation of this unique developement. The fact that animals can learn language's basics when taught it first generation is a very large implication of their intelligence. But I do also conceed that our ancestors (whether human or close to it) were probably a very clever animal. Combine that with proper articulation in opposable thumbs, and elaborate vocal systems, and that makes us poster child species for societal progress.

 

[Where the river goes]

I'm not a people person at all, for the most part...people piss me off. I find animals far more interesting than humans and would much rather spend time around animals than humans. To be honest, I have much more respect and admiration for the animal world than the human world, though the lives of both are equally as valuable.

 

[Abernathy]

Thank you all for your replies. This has been most enlightening and confirms some general thoughts I have had on the nature of our society today.