First Aquarium: 20 G Tank Diary// Update: Aspen Is Dead...

[rabbut]

*sighs* Parents are incorrect again. The cleaner the water the healthier the fish As a genaeral rule..... Don't realy know what to surgest... My usual way of dealing with similar comments from my folks, is to be out-and-out cheaky, but for most, this results in a harsh telling of. I'm a little spoilt and older, thus I can get away with it

The rotting mouth sounds like "mouth rot" to me, and is bacterial. An anti-bacteria med would be the best bet, or a salt bath Add about 1TBS per litre to a bag of tank water and allow it to disolve. Then catch the fish and place them into the bag. Watch them like a hawk. If they start floating upside-down, get them out quickly. Leave them for up-to 3 minuites, and then return the fish to the tank. It would be best to find someone else whom has used this treatment before, as there is a fare amount of risk to the fish wit this method of treatment

HTH
Rabbut

 

[Aleydis]

Saturday, June 21, 2008

Okay... Here's the lowdown on today.

I had to get Felix out of the tank. Today I saw a big chunk of meat missing from his body. He couldn't swim well, and couldn't get food. So I put him in a small bowl and fed him. He ate all that I gave him the first time, but nothing the second time. Is this cannibalism in the tank? I swear I didn't see the chunk of meat missing yesterday. It's like a big, hollow white spot on the left of Felix, and I can almost see his bones...

Draco (The bully platy) died today. NOOOO! Today I woke up, ate a banana, was about to throw the peel into the compost bin... I open up the lid, and GLORY BEHOLD! DRACO IS DEAD AND ROTTING AMONGST THE TEA LEAVES!

When I asked for an explanation, my mom told me she found him dead today, so she took him out and put him in the compost bin.

The fish with the mouth rot and white stuff on her chin died today. I saw some white filmy substance floating from beneath her stomach before she died. I could only see this when looking at her above with a dark surface underneath. I couldn't see anything on the side except a rather large white patch. What is this? Is this rotting skin?
Well after she died, she joined Draco in the compost. I hope she enjoys her tea on the way to fishy heaven.

I'm starting to doubt that it's ammonia poisoning killing all my fish... I'm even starting to doubt my own actions... Is what I'm doing right?
Today I tested ammonia before I changed 50% of the water. 0.5. After the water change... 0.5. What. The. Hell?

I've decided- I'll change the water once every three days from now on. No more, no less.

Why should I bother when ammonia doesn't even change?
Why should I bother when there's a chance my fish died due to too much changing?
I'll just try out this new routine. It was actually suggested by my father, and if it doesn't work, I'M CHARGING MONEY FOR EACH FISH DEAD.

Also, I had an argument with my father about the filter during water changes. I change so much water that usually the filter stops working and makes very loud mechanical sounds. My dad thinks I should turn off the power while I change the water or else the filter engines will burn out. Should I turn off the power? Will it affect the bacteria once I turn it on again?

Fishy Info:
My yellow platies came home yellow and black. Over the weeks they've gained a reddish tinge to their color. Is this an unhealthy sign?

Currently Wondering:
Filter problems above
Platy color problem above
Is there any natural way to speed up the healing of Felix? His tail looks horrible, and I'm afraid his wound might get infected... Is there no hope for him? He's my second favorite male guppy...

Notes:
rabbut- Can I use any salt? Or just aquarium salt? My salt comes in blocks... Some are big, some are small...

 

[rabbut]

SALT; no, table salt uses stuff to stop it sticking together that happens to be toxic to fish, same as any salt intended for human consumption realy It must be aquarium salt

FILTERS; yes, switch it off if it runs dry, or it will burn out. Try to keep it off for as shorter time as possible, or you will start to loose bacteria to oxygen starvation. If it is going to be off for more than about 1/2 an hour, throw the media into the tank to keep it alive

WATERCHANGES; these are important. Is there any ammonia in your tap water? If so, this could explain why the ammonia isn't dropping after waterchanges, and is something we need to be aware of If there is no ammonia in the tap water, you need to keep up waterchanges. Stopping the waterchanges and going onto once every 3 days will almost certainly wipe the tank

LOSSES; your recent update confirms to me that you have something bacterial going on. The deaths are more than ammonia poisoning, meaning that you now have a problem. With it spreading, salt won't help You will need meds... The caurse though, is probibly the high ammonia levels in the tank

Post is the emergencies section, and Wilder or another member will recomend a good med. Tell them you are dealing with mouth rot and dropsy in a cycling aquarium, and also let them know that you are based in America, so that they can make relivant recomendations for medications

HTH
Rabbut

 

[Miss Wiggle]

unfortunatley poor water quality (i.e. the ammonia in the tank) can cause many problems, as rabbut said it certainly seems like the fish have picked up some bacterial infection because of the water. without proper medication you're gonna struggle. I don't really know what else to suggest tbh, if you don't medicate serious bacterial infections they can just wipe out your whole tank....

 

[Aleydis]

BAD NEWS: PARENTS HAVE REPOSSESSED TANK.

Sorry y'all- I changed my mind today about the water changes, but dad has forcefully taken the tank from me. He says he'll try treating the water his way (1 change every three days, 1/4 of the water).
He told me that once he proves that fish survive better in 'NORMAL water conditions', as he calls it, he'll give me back the tank, provided I continue water changes his way, which means a 1/4 water change once every month.

I don't think my fish will make it.

Slightly good news is... Starting tomorrow he's paying compensation money for every fish lost. Once his wallet runs empty maybe he'll realize his mistakes.

OKAY- BACK TO TODAY'S UPDATE!

Felix died today. He was at the bottom of the bowl. I believe his death is due to his injuries... He was probably in too much pain... T__T
IN MY MOM'S TANK- All her fish died. (4) I probably haven't told you all much about my mom's tank, because I was too lazy to.. But I'll brief you now- My mom has a tiny little tank (4L fills it) with nothing (No filter, heater, air pump...) but fish- 1 swordtail platy and 3 male guppies. She says she'll take care of her own tank and no one shall interfere.
The fish have been there for around 3 weeks... No, the tank is not cycled. No, she hasn't performed a single water change from the time she put the fish in...
They've been flashing and doing shimmy and showing lethargy and general craziness and sickness symptoms for days, but mom ignored everything I told her. They all died today.

Dad's reaction to buying medication for fish:
"If the fish are healthy, fine. If they're not- fine. Who cares if they die? It's not like they're expensive anyways... And if you don't want to see them suffer- Just flush them! Simple! Why should we spend valuable money on fish that cost even less?"

Obviously he hasn't heard of feelings for pets. He's not cruel to the fish- he just doesn't understand... D:

I know I've begun to sound like a heartless brat in my last post, but I really don't mean it. I love my fish and all living things, and hate to see them suffer... But it seems my dad won't change his way of seeing things until something goes wrong.

He says he'll do everything himself starting today. He made everything clear that I am NOT TO TOUCH A THING. The following was written in an angry daze. I type rather fast when angry.

This is his method of feeding fish:

-One meal per day
-Each meal, serve a PINCH of food (Dad: All fish food INFLATE IN THE FISH'S STOMACH. IT WILL BLOW UP THE FISH AND KILL IT. )
-Plecos don't need food. They eat fish poop and other junk. (He thinks I wasted money for algae wafers and stuff since... Dad: PLECOS DON'T NEED FOOD.)
-Never give too much variety. Fish don't care. Too much variety makes them confused on what they should and shouldn't eat.

This is his method of changing water:

-Gravel should not be vacuumed. This disturbs bacteria in the water.
-No water conditioner should be added. This puts the fish on drugs they don't need.
-Filters should be turned off. (Dad: Since there IS NO BACTERIA IN THE FILTER IT DOES NOT NEED TO BE KEPT WET, SINCE ALL THE BACTERIA IS IN THE GRAVEL.)
-Will change 1/4 of the water once every three days. After a week, switch to 1/4 every month. More than that will negatively affect the fish and give them colds. ( )
-Fish are more sensitive to low temperatures than high temps. Dad: since LOW TEMPS CAUSE ICH. Thus, water at a higher temp. than the tank is better for the fish when doing water changes.

This is his method of general care:

-Lights should be on 12 hours a day. Dad: ALL FISH NEED LIGHT TO SURVIVE AND SEE THEIR FOOD. IT DOESN'T MATTER THAT OUR TANK IS PLACED NEAR A WINDOW. THAT LIGHT IS NOT ENOUGH.
-Cardinal Tetras LIKE THE LIGHT VERY MUCH. THEY ARE NOT NOCTURNAL.
-Any guppy suspected of pregnancy is to be put into the breeding tank immediately until birth. It doesn't matter how long we wait.
-If adding any medicines, add full dosage. Dad: Plecos HAVE STRONGER SKIN THAN OTHER FISH, THUS THEY WILL NOT BE AFFECTED BY MEDICINES.
-Scaleless fish medicines are the same as the normal onces. The companies are lying to you so they can earn more money.

And other stuff he believes:

-No one cares about cycles. It's all a big plan to make you buy test kits and meds.
-The people on the fish forums are trying to sell and promote meds. They work in pet stores and their job online is to convince you to buy stuff your fish doesn't need. (This statement really angered me right there. D
-Test kits are rigged to give you over exaggerated responses so you'll panic and buy meds.
-There is NO WAY that ammonia level can be 0. Since the test strip shows 0-8PPM, ANYWHERE AROUND 4 IS OKAY, SINCE IT'S IN THE MIDDLE. THE MIDDLE IS ALWAYS THE BEST. 0 is TOO LOW and FISH CANNOT SURVIVE IN WAY TOO CLEAN WATERS.

-~-~-

Fine, then. Let this be a lesson to him.

I will still update every day on the status of my fish, just so you all know. Thank you so much for taking the effort into reading this diary up until now- your opinions mean so much to me.

Fishy Info:
A black scratch thing appeared on Jacques... My THIRD FAVOURITE GUPPY. WHY?!?

Currently Wondering:
What's that thing on Jacques? (Sorry- no pictures. Camera got repossessed after dad found me kneeling before the tank taking pictures for half an hour)
Is it me or am I dealing with weird parents?

Notes:
Miss Wiggle- I proposed buying meds to my dad, and he says the bacteria will go away by itself. Humph.
Thanks for your advice- You've been one of the most helpful people I've met here, Miss Wiggle. =) I'm so sorry that I was never able to buy the meds you suggest and tell you the results...
rabbut- Wow- That's a lot of info! Thanks so much. I never knew that about my filter before... And no, there is no ammonia whatsoever in the tap water. I've posted in the emergency section like you said, and all the replies I've had asked me to buy meds. *sigh* Sorry if I sound like an abuser of animals to you- I'm really trying my best, but it's even harder now that dad's repossessed the tank. )=

 

[Miss Wiggle]

Oh Aleydis, None of us think you are cruel or unkind to your pets, I've been praying for a sudden reversal in your parents attitudes so that you could do more to help your fish. We totally understand that you're stuck in a horrible situation at the moment and that you've done everything you can.

While it would be horrible for your fish, the only thing I can hope for is that your Dad will struggle with the fish and come to the realisation that it's not as easy as he thinks and start to listen to you.

 

[rabbut]

Shockingly, I agree with him on some points.....

I also agree with Miss Wiggle, you are not at fault here, it's your dad that is getting out backs up a little bit....

FILTERS; you can run a system without filtration. It is however very hard to do. To run such a system, you would need a very in-deapth knowlage of how a wild pond or similar situation worked, and also understand why nature does it that way. These systems are only realy for advanced aquarists. I have 14 years fishkeeping experience behind me, as I wouldn't even thing of trying a system like this; with 5 years of reading about them, I still don't have the deapth of knowlage to design such a system, let alone run one...

WATERCHANGES; again, can be done monthly if you are "savy" about them. To get away with monthly changes, you need a very light load on the tank, and the monthly change will usualy need to be large Temperature drops are nothing to worry about. I fill direct from the cold tap, even when doing 50% waterchanges, even during mid-winter. It takes an hour to fill, and the temperature drops about 5 degrees, and isn't a problem. Raising the temperature IME is an issue. When the temperature drops, I usualy see my plecos trying to breed, so I can't see how these "negative effects" are effecting them

LFS STAFF WORKING ON THE FORUM;does happen. I work in my LFS, but I don't recomend treating fish without good reason. Fish treatments put the fish under a great deal of chemical stress can can lead to premature death, again unless you are treating because it's nessisary, and leaving is something that will do more harm than good. My med recomandations are only made when I'm sure all other methods of treatment have been exhaursted.

MEDICATIONS; Water conditioner is not a med. When you farther was a boy, he could leave a bucket of water to stand for 24hours and then use it, as chlorine would gas off. Now water companies are usig chloramine that stays in the water for years. This is why we now use water conditioner. Some members that know their water company use chlorine, will not use water coditioner. Miss Wiggle was one such member for a while. US supplies though are almost always chloramine treated these days, chlorien is the exception to the treatment routien...

If your dad realy knew his stuff, a tank could be ran his way. He however will likely crash your tank killing most, if not all, your fish, as the knowlage isn't there to support his methods. Brace yourself for losses, in his care there will be many

RE; Test Kits. Strips are un-reliable often giving false highs. Your tank may well have been cycled before "dad" took over, but you won't be able to tell without liquid kits. I agree that it is impossible for there to be zero ammonia or nitrite in the water, but the levels should be so low, that out kits see them as zero. If 4 is a good number for ammonia, perhapse he could explain why my test kits show zero for ammonia and nitrite, yet my discus that are amongst the fussyest fish arround for water quality, are still alive and well???

Some bacteria will live in the gravel, but the ammounts will be neglagable, compaired to the filter colonies. Bacteria in the filter will account for 99% of all the tanks bacteria when the system is mature. Biofilm will acount for about 0.9%, leaving about 0.1% of all the tanks bacteria in the gravel

In all honesty, as this point, I'd touch, but only to remove the fish and take them back to the shop. At this time, it would be the fairest thing to do for them. If they stay in your dad's care, their days are numbered

Best of luck
Rabbut

 

[orange shark]

-Plecos don't need food. They eat fish poop and other junk. (He thinks I wasted money for algae wafers and stuff since... Dad: PLECOS DON'T NEED FOOD.)
-Never give too much variety. Fish don't care. Too much variety makes them confused on what they should and shouldn't eat.

This is his method of changing water:

-Gravel should not be vacuumed. This disturbs bacteria in the water.
-No water conditioner should be added. This puts the fish on drugs they don't need.
-Filters should be turned off. (Dad: Since there IS NO BACTERIA IN THE FILTER IT DOES NOT NEED TO BE KEPT WET, SINCE ALL THE BACTERIA IS IN THE GRAVEL.)
-Will change 1/4 of the water once every three days. After a week, switch to 1/4 every month. More than that will negatively affect the fish and give them colds. ( )

And other stuff he believes:

-No one cares about cycles. It's all a big plan to make you buy test kits and meds.
-The people on the fish forums are trying to sell and promote meds. They work in pet stores and their job online is to convince you to buy stuff your fish doesn't need. (This statement really angered me right there. D
-Test kits are rigged to give you over exaggerated responses so you'll panic and buy meds.
-There is NO WAY that ammonia level can be 0. Since the test strip shows 0-8PPM, ANYWHERE AROUND 4 IS OKAY, SINCE IT'S IN THE MIDDLE. THE MIDDLE IS ALWAYS THE BEST. 0 is TOO LOW and FISH CANNOT SURVIVE IN WAY TOO CLEAN WATERS.

All above is completely wrong

-Vaccuming the gravel does not remove any bacteria as most if not all is in the filter media not the gravel
-Water conditioner is not a drug its an essential chemical that removes everything harmful to your fish from your water
-Filter should not be turned off, it will kill all the bacteria you have grown in your filter so far
-Water changes in a cycled tank should be done once a week, in an uncycled tank once a day
-Most people care about cycling their tanks, lfs dont reccomend cycling so they dont reccomend buying test kits so that point doesnt work
-SOME people on here work in their lfs, i do, but why would I recomend u too buy things that you don't need when I live in a completely different country too you! What we recomend is that you do whats best for your fish
-Test kits are not rigged!
-Ammonia is poisonous to fish even at a level of 0.25ppm so how would 4 be any better?

I'd advise your dad to come on the site and talk to us himself, or atleast read what we have to say. Then he can see that we advise whats best for your fish

Orange Shark

 

[rabbut]

Well said orange shark. I seem to be "fluffing about the point" a lot at the moment......

 

[waterdrop]

agreed. The statements orange shark made are correct.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[orange shark]

ty

 

[Aleydis]

Monday, June 23, 2008

Surprisingly enough today, no fish died. Nothing happened to Jacques yet! YAY!

But on a sad note, I found out soon enough that a female guppy had a cloudy eye, and not only that, there was a patch of white furry stuff all over her eye- It was HUGE! Looking from the top and front, it looks disgusting. I believe this is a bacterial infection due to ammonia? Dad still doesn't believe in ammonia. We've separated her and I proposed putting some salt in to help with killing the bacteria, but dad won't let me because he thinks the white stuff is rotting flesh, and the fish will DIE of PAIN if any salt is put in.

Whatever. Fine.

I've noticed that my fish aren't as active as they were a few days ago... Is this lethargy? I heard somewhere that fish subjected to ammonia poisoning act really active, and then lethargic as they begin to die...
Bad news is: Now ALL of the guppies in the tank has that black ring around their mouths... More mouth rot? D: When my dad feeds, some of the fish just stay away... And much of the small amount of food falls on the gravel. Dad says the plecos will get it, so I shouldn't worry. (Do plecos actually eat fallen fish flakes?) Moreover, should I be worried?

Fishy Info:
A female guppy was sporting clamped fins today. She wasn't eating, but was hanging out normally. I haven't been able to test ammonia, since I can't find the test kits now... D:

Currently Wondering:
One of my fry suddenly became a blackish color, and swims slower than he used to. He's just a few millimeters long right now. I feed the fry VERY SMALL pieces of flake, and an occasional crushed up mysis. I change the water for them once every 2 days, since they're simply kept in a bowl. Should I be worried about this fry's behavior?

Notes:
Yeah I know- Everything he says is wrong, but he says if he is PROVEN wrong, then he won't bother me anymore... I hate to say this, but in the grand scheme of things, it may be better to let him be, as Miss Wiggle suggests?

Miss Wiggle- Thank you for your support. =)
Orange Shark- ...Actually, my parents don't know English that well. They immigrated a few years ago, but haven't caught up on the English. They're not very keen on technology, either... I've tried to get him on the forum, but he just laughs. Thanks for offering, though. ;D
waterdrop- Mmm hmm.
rabbut- Sorry- I do have liquid testers. I made a typo when I said I had test strips.
=O Woah... So much info... @_@
Really? So ammonia is not ACTUALLY 0 when the liquid shows it as 0? Well that answers a lot of questions, since my mom thinks that there will always be SOME ammonia in the tank, and it's impossible to actually go down to 0, and I was always confused. Thanks.
By the way, a lot of people have asked me this, but I can't return my fish. Most of them are fish Cassandra has no where else to put, and some of them were bought from the breeding facility thing... So thus, I am stuck with them.

 

[Corleone]

Yeah I know- Everything he says is wrong, but he says if he is PROVEN wrong, then he won't bother me anymore... I hate to say this, but in the grand scheme of things, it may be better to let him be, as Miss Wiggle suggests?

I just got caught up on your last few posts. Man, I'm really sorry your parents repossessed the tank. You were trying so hard.

I'd say let your dad be proven wrong. It's going to hurt, but honestly without their full carte blanche to do what your fish need, you're probably not going to be able to get them through this crisis, and if you compromise and only do half enough, your dad will probably say you did too much, not too little.

It sounds like the tank would need a disaster-mode intervention at this point. It's better (for you, unfortunately, not the fish, and only in the long run - we all care about our fish, but human affairs figure in the equation, too) to let your dad's methods fail, and fail they will. Let him restock the tank, let him kill those, too.

Don't interfere, don't suggest. By the sounds of it, he'll blame the fish deaths on all sorts of things, and probably restock yet again... It'll hurt to watch, but as horrible as it sounds, those fish will hopefully be giving you a better second start soon.

When you think he's had enough, have a good, "I told you so," and start a civil discussion. Give them your case, and offer a new deal. I think something along these lines:

1. Request unfettered control over the tank - water changes, stocking decisions, all of it. You had compromise, and you had your dad's way, and neither is going to work. Let's try the modern way, now.
2. Set out an initial budget for things you still don't have, and rough out a monthly budget for the tank. Keep it low, but don't skimp. Budget food and leave $10 or $15 over for discretionary spending - meds or replacement test bottles. Return any surplus to them at the end of the month so they can't say you're skimming, but make sure they understand why you built in a surplus, so they don't try to cut the budget.
3. Restart the tank, do a fishless cycle, and get a good start for you and your fish.
4. Have another "I told you so," when things go infinitely better.

I don't envy you what you're going through. It'll be hard to let your dad learn his lessons, especially since you've learned enough that you'll know how to prevent or correct a good bit of it. Ultimately, this could be just what it takes to get the situation under control, and when you get your second start, you'll always have the full support of this forum. Please, just don't give up - many people, many of us on this forum - had bad experiences that nearly put us off having fish, but when you're finally there, it feels great.


If your dad thinks we're just trying to sell stuff, he should go down to the LFS - they'll try to pile so much useless crap on you it's ridiculous. For all the bottles they tried to sell me when I bought my first tank, there'd hardly be any actual water in there! I was lucky enough to be referred to this site before that, and saved a great deal of money, even then, they still talked me into wasting a good $20 on useless stuff.

 

[Miss Wiggle]

totally agree with Corleone, poor little fishies though.

I really feel for you in this situation Aleydis, it must be horrible for you.

 

[rhostog]

Really sorry things aren't going well for you, Aleydis. I think Corleone is giving very wise advice. It's hard for us parents to get used to the idea that our kids sometimes know better than we do, and have access to advice (like this forum or their friends) that doesn't include us, but it's a lesson we all have to learn - very sorry that it's your poor fish paying the price. I agree with Corleone & the others, it's probably best to stand back now, bite your tongue, cry your eyes out in private, and when it's time to say 'I told you so', try to do so tactfully (SO hard). Parents don't want our kids to get hurt, and when it's our fault that it's happened, due to our bad advice or actions, that's very hard for us to accept.

I do hope things improve for you soon, and please don't give up. You've learnt so much, you're going to be such a great source of advice to the rest of us in the future!