Filtration vs stocking

[cowgirluntamed]

So...I've been reading through a lot og these recent posts about filtration and of course water changes and such. But as of right now, I'm curious as to recommendations on filtration. I read in one post that we really shouldn't even need filtration except mostly mechanical.

I'm planning a 55 gallon tank. Planted. Most will be a couple swords, lilies, crypts, and floating wisteria like my 20 gallon and maybe some frog bit.

The fish will be one 3 spot gourami, one bristle nose pleco male, 15 or so each of the black phantom tetra, harlequin rasbora, and pristella tetra. And 10-12 sterbai cories.

I had thought of getting two aquaclear 50s(one for each side of tank). One will have 2 sponges plus biorings and the other a sponge plus polyfil. Then I was going to add a dual sponge filter as well instead of an air stone. The aquaclear with the polyfil will be on its lowest setting(I'm thinking the sponge filter will be next to it maybe) and I wasn't sure on the other one.

Is this OK or is it "too much" that may not be necessary? Just curious as to what everybody's thoughts were on this subject. I have to buy the filters still and money is tight, another reason I'm asking. Lol. If I only did say, one aquaclear(bigger? Smaller?), and set it up with one sponge, polyfil, then biorings....maybe? Just to help with particulate matter? Then 2 sponge filters? Or what combination of what would you guys use/recommend?

 

[AbbeysDad]

On my 60g heavily planted low tech tank I'm running two Aquaclear 70 filters with AC50 impellers. Both are totally filled with sponge material* and two back to back filter pads and they're most often set to low flow.
I do a 20g weekly water change, cleaning the sponges in one (alternating wks) of the filters and clean the glass. Following the water change I run a Marineland Internal Polishing filter with the micron filter cartridge charged with diatomaceous earth for several hours. The water is super crystal clear.

* I believe that sponge material is the best mechanical AND biological media.

 

[cowgirluntamed]

So you don't think that two 50s would be too much? I'm also looking at 2 of them to help with water circulation. I'm also going to have two heaters(one on each side as well), and wanted to circulate the water a bit better. Or would say, one 70 be better if I have the dual sponge filter on one side and it on the other? Or even, like I said, just one 50 with the sponge filter on the other side?

 

[AbbeysDad]

I'd use two Aquaclear's (now branded as Fluval instead of Hagen I believe) filled with bio-sponge material effectively making them 'HOB sponge filters'....no need for a sponge filter. I like the AC70's due to the increased media space (the AC50 is about half the size).
Having two heaters is a good idea, but can be tricky to get both synced properly. Having two heaters better ensures that if one fails, the other will maintain temperature....unless one sticks on!
I used two 200w heaters for quite awhile (when one 150w would have worked). You could use two 100w heaters to share the load, and prolong an overheat interval if one was to ever stick on. (I've never had a heater stick on, but I've had a few that quit maintaining temperature or just plain quit).
However, I'm currently using a Finnex external controller with a single 500w titanium heater (on the bottom back wall just above the substrate- made invisible by plants).
I think the failures of most heaters is due to the internal thermostat. I believe the external controller and the nearly indestructible titanium heater is even more bullet proof. HOWEVER, it is more expensive than two average heaters!
But don't skimp on heaters. I like the Aqueon Pro's. Aqueon heaters are guaranteed for life (save the receipt). If one ever fails, they'll send you a new one free of charge!

 

[cowgirluntamed]

I actually have two 200w aqueon pro heaters that I bought specifically for the tank. Lol. Do you think I should just try one then at first and see how it goes? The room it will be going in sort of gets cold at times though. I guess I could always just play around before anything goes in the tank...lol. Where would the best place for it be? I've always heard next to the filter, which if I had two they would go by both filters. But would you just put one by one of the filters or just in the middle?

So, 2 aquaclears with sponges. I like sponges. Lol. Do you think two 50s would work on this tank or like a 70 and a 50? Not sure if I could do two 70s price wise. And could I still put some polyfil in one to help polish instead of getting something separate to polish the water? And would you put a filter in each corner of the tank then as well?

Sorry for all the questions! Just trying to figure out what to do so I can try and save some money! Lol.

 

[AbbeysDad]

If you have the two heaters, I'd use both. Start with just one plugged in and adjust to get the temp where you want it. Then unplug it and plug the other one in and adjust as necessary to get/maintain the same temp...then plug the first one back in. Both should now be very close to share the load and if either fails, the temp should be maintained.
I would place each heater next to the filters, OR....
Tip: once you have the heaters 'locked in' for temperature control, since they are submersible, you could move them down sideways near the substrate. With plants and/or decor, they would be nearly invisible (run cords up the back/side corners) AND no need to unplug when you do water changes.

As I mentioned, I have two AC70's on my 60g, but you could use one AC70 or two AC50's and you could use polyester fiber in one or both as desired as the last step to polish the water. I like having two for better circulation and alternating filter maintenance.
As for placing the filters, I'd put them approximately 1/4 of the way in on both sides. So if you were to think of the tank as two halves from left to right, center the filters in each half....or there abouts as this gives you the best overall coverage for circulation.

Note: On filters, I originally just had the one AC70 filter. Then I got the idea of attempting to culture anaerobic bacteria, so I got another and loaded it with Seachem Matrix/Dentrate (pumice) media. Later, when this didn't pan out, I continued to run both filters, both filled with bio-sponge.
Now there are a lot of 'canister snobs' out there, but I love the Aquaclear design and hands down, the filter maintenance couldn't be quicker and easier!

 

[cowgirluntamed]

Thanks so much! I have a much better idea on what to do now! I'm also glad that the aquaclear sponges aren't expensive too! And I agree with you on the canisters....I had one on my 20 gallon for a while...started hating trying to take care of it. While I had an aquaclear on a 10 gallon and it was so easy! Lol. I never had a problem with it unless the power went out. And I may have had to clean the impeller twice because it stopped working well. Again, thanks so much for the tips!

 

[Byron]

I agree with all Mike said about filtration and such, but given your tank and intended fish, I would not have two filters, nor at opposite ends.

Maintaining the water flow from one end down the tank to the other creates a more natural stream setting for the fish, and they will be more "relaxed" with this. The species mentioned are primarily quiet water fish, so the least movement the better.

 

[cowgirluntamed]

I agree with all Mike said about filtration and such, but given your tank and intended fish, I would not have two filters, nor at opposite ends.

Maintaining the water flow from one end down the tank to the other creates a more natural stream setting for the fish, and they will be more "relaxed" with this. The species mentioned are primarily quiet water fish, so the least movement the better.

Hmm...ok. Thanks Byron. Would you go with an aquaclear 70 then instead of a 50? Would you place this filter more in the corner of the tank or like Mike said, about a quarter of the way in from the corner? And what also are your thoughts on including (or not) a dual sponge filter as well? I'm thinking, if I was to get one filter...the 70? I can turn it down, or even get a smaller impeller to help as well. Cost wouldn't be a factor there for only one filter.

Oh, and best place to test the temperature of the water when testing the heaters? Would it be in the middle front or back of tank away from the heater? Or on the far side away from it? I have some digital thermometers that have the probe on a wire to stick into the tank. Seems to do a decent job and is easily read. Lol.

 

[AbbeysDad]

The beauty of the Aquaclear's (or another beauty) is that the inlet swivels to provide maximum re-filtration and minimum output with pretty good adjustability.
I didn't pay attention to the intended stock...I have (and/or have had) angels, swordtails, platys, corys, mollys, neons, etc...and all seem just fine in my setup.
If you go with one filter, I'd place it as close to the center of the tank as possible and start with the AC70 out of the box with the inlet tube centered for medium flow ....or adjust as seems right. As far as temperature, you should have sufficient circulation so there should be the same temperature pretty much everywhere.

If you really want/need to simulate a river, you really need to go with a canister with the inlet on one end and the outlet on the other. An alternative would be to add a powerhead. The question is the need.
I sometimes wonder if we don't sometimes over think fish needs by confusing wild caught fish with tank/pond raised fish. Many species in the wild live in conditions quite different than many of the tank/pond raised fish of the same species for sale in the hobby. Further, I think a fish raised in turbulent waters can adapt to calmer waters. Our focus needs to be most on high quality food and water, consistent appropriate temperature, with routine water changes and good tank/filter maintenance.

 

[Byron]

When I had my 55g tank back in the 1980's, I used a Hang-On-Back filter that had the directional spigot for the return as Mike described. It wasn't an AquaClear but that doesn't matter, the design and operation were the same. I had this in the rear left corner, with the spigot aimed into the end wall beside it. This created a nice flow down the tank, even though the intake was immediately below. You could direct this spigot down the tank for more flow, and I don't think that would hurt here.

I would not recommend these filters in the middle of the tank. I had that once, and I found no water movement (or barely detectable) at either end in 4-foot tanks. The end-to-end idea will achieve the most circulation I think, though I have no scientific data to back this up. But from my experience it seems the case.

As for which filter model, I will leave that to you and Mike. Remember the idea is no filter at all,in a planted tank with a balanced fish load. So from that perspective, your filter is not doing much other than water circulation, which I would agree helps in larger tanks and it circulates the heat better. You just don't need to overdo this. And the foam/sponge inserts will keep the water clear which is your mechanical filtration and usually beneficial. That was one thing I found when I experimented with the 10g having no filter, the water was never crystal clear; I added a sponge filter to the same tank, and it became crystal clear. Clear and clean are very different things as we all know.

I haven't used HOB filters since then because of a bad experience. One evening while I was out the power went off just briefly, but enough to put all the tanks in darkness (the fluorescent lights back then were not self-starting so once they were disconnected fro the power you had to manually turn them on with the switch held in--remember those?) and the HOB filter ran dry and couldn't prime itself when the power came back on, so the motor burned out. I was lucky it didn't start a fire. Anyway, that was the end of HOB filters for me. I believe this problem has been fixed with the new HOB's...or has it? Anyway, now it is canister on large tanks (4 feet and over) and sponge on everything smaller, which works well even on 60 and 70g tanks.

 

[AbbeysDad]

@Byron - you misunderstood the design function of the inlet tube. It can be rotated over the impeller such that the filter will either re-filter water more OR push more water through the media and back out to the tank - this allows us to easily adjust the output flow, not direction. The output is a somewhat waterfall although if the tank is full, water flows straight out across the surface and pools around both sides.

As long as the inlet tube is not removed, there is never an issue if power is interrupted and returns. The only exception is if unserviced for a long period, crud can build up around the impeller magnet such that when the power goes out and comes back on, the impeller is stuck in the muck....but I wouldn't take off points for something like that.

You wrote: "Remember the idea is no filter at all,in a planted tank with a balanced fish load."
I don't believe this is true. We might 'get away' with no filter, but as we've discussed, plants and fish all benefit from good water circulation. I would also contend that both mechanical and biological filtration occurs to some degree in the filter(s) even in the heavily planted tank. At least enough that I was recently able to take the media from one of my filters and instantly cycle a ten gallon that I set up as well as jump start/cycle a bucket trickle filter I built for the turtle pond.
I recommended the two filters to better ensure water circulation in a 4 foot tank...but if only one filter is used, the AC70 has sufficient output to promote decent circulation without creating a swirling vortex. Certainly more than any sponge filter. Of course, as with any filter, there will be some areas with less circulation than other areas.
I have plenty of circulation in my 60g with the two AC70's and they both have much smaller AC50 impellers installed....and I usually have these set (as mentioned above) for maximum re-filtration with minimum output flow.
BTW, an Aquaclear filled with bio-sponge foam material is every bit as good, or better than the average sponge filter.

Finally when it comes to maintenance I can service these filters in less than 5 minutes and never turn the filter off. Something that can't be matched by any canister. Because it's so simple and easy, it can be done much more often than a canister is serviced to get the crud out.
Oh, I might have a canister filter if I had a 100g+, but for a 55g, 60g, 75g, or less, I think I'd stick with an Aquaclear or a Seachem Tidal HOB - but never, ever a cartridge type HOB.

 

[cowgirluntamed]

The beauty of the Aquaclear's (or another beauty) is that the inlet swivels to provide maximum re-filtration and minimum output with pretty good adjustability.

I love being able to adjust the flow output of the aquaclears.

I didn't pay attention to the intended stock...I have (and/or have had) angels, swordtails, platys, corys, mollys, neons, etc...and all seem just fine in my setup.

Black phantom tetras, pristellas tetras, harlequin rasboras, sterbai cories, a three spot gourami, and a bristlenose pleco.

I believe this problem has been fixed with the new HOB's...or has it?

My smaller aquaclear didn't want to suck up much water but it would just overheat and stop itself. It also did this once without a power outage. But once I cleaned the impeller and let it cool down it worked just fine after. Not sure if it was designed for that or not.

I recommended the two filters to better ensure water circulation in a 4 foot tank...

I'm thinking two of the 50s myself and I can lower the flow all the way if need be. Just to help with the heat since that room can get cold.

BTW, an Aquaclear filled with bio-sponge foam material is every bit as good, or better than the average sponge filter.

I understand this, mostly was curious to keep it in there in case I needed a quick quarantine tank cycled. Can you just squeeze the gunk into the quarantine tank and have it be cycled?

Finally when it comes to maintenance I can service these filters in less than 5 minutes and never turn the filter off.

Love this about the filter!! Another reason I want this over a canister. The canister seemed so much trouble that I wasn't used to.

 

[AbbeysDad]

Can you just squeeze the gunk into the quarantine tank and have it be cycled?.

In a word...yes. Better even than bacteria in a bottle*, you would be adding live, active bacteria from a healthy tank into a new tank, effectively doing an instant bacteria seed to promote the N2 cycle. All that's needed is the ammonia and nitrites to promote the cycle in the new tank.
Now much like any new tank, you don't want to overload with fish all at once, but hardly an issue for a quarantine or hospital tank.

As a matter of fact, I recently did this for a 10g tank as I decided to move some 18 young (3/4") fish from my 60g for a final grow out before they went to the LFS. I took the media from one of my AC70's and 'cleaned' the sponges in the fresh 10g tank water (the 10g has an AC50 on it with an AC20 or AC30 impeller). An hour later, I added the 18 fish and all was fine. I did have cloudy water a couple of days later, but it changed to crystal clear in 24-48 hours. I've since added a Hamburg Madden filter on one end and now the tank serves me as a quarantine tank for a dozen large Neon Tetras.

* Note: Bacteria in a bottle products get a bad rap, sometimes referred to as snake oil. Now bacteria is extremely resilient. However, it's packaged in a factory and stored in a warehouse. It's shipped and in transit for sometimes extended periods in all sorts of weather. It sits in another warehouse and/or a retailers shelf until purchased. So the bacteria, assuming it's survived all of that, is in a state of stasis or suspended animation...some (sometimes all) have probably perished.
When you 'clean' media from an established tank/filter, you're adding active, living beneficial bacteria that will instantly jump start another new aquarium.

 

[cowgirluntamed]

In a word...yes. Better even than bacteria in a bottle*, you would be adding live, active bacteria from a healthy tank into a new tank, effectively doing an instant bacteria seed to promote the N2 cycle. All that's needed is the ammonia and nitrites to promote the cycle in the new tank.
Now much like any new tank, you don't want to overload with fish all at once, but hardly an issue for a quarantine or hospital tank.

As a matter of fact, I recently did this for a 10g tank as I decided to move some 18 young (3/4") fish from my 60g for a final grow out before they went to the LFS. I took the media from one of my AC70's and 'cleaned' the sponges in the fresh 10g tank water (the 10g has an AC50 on it with an AC20 or AC30 impeller). An hour later, I added the 18 fish and all was fine. I did have cloudy water a couple of days later, but it changed to crystal clear in 24-48 hours. I've since added a Hamburg Madden filter on one end and now the tank serves me as a quarantine tank for a dozen large Neon Tetras.

* Note: Bacteria in a bottle products get a bad rap, sometimes referred to as snake oil. Now bacteria is extremely resilient. However, it's packaged in a factory and stored in a warehouse. It's shipped and in transit for sometimes extended periods in all sorts of weather. It sits in another warehouse and/or a retailers shelf until purchased. So the bacteria, assuming it's survived all of that, is in a state of stasis or suspended animation...some (sometimes all) have probably perished.
When you 'clean' media from an established tank/filter, you're adding active, living beneficial bacteria that will instantly jump start another new aquarium.

Thanks! I do plan on getting plants established first (and mts). And have a good amount of at least floating plants before any fish go in. My pleco will be the first though. Then my plan was to order these fish online, all at once, and put like the 2 groups of tetras in the big tank, then the group of harlequins in a ten, and the cories in another ten. I also can have the tetra safe start available all well to use in them all at that time too. Then just monitor and once everything is going good then add a group at a time to the big tank, followed by the gourami last. Does this sound like a good idea? It would save on shipping cost for me as well to, getting them all at once.