"Experience" clearly DOES NOT equate to knowledge!

[Bruce Leyland-Jones]

I'm tired of hearing fishkeepers tell me how 'experienced' they are in keeping fish, when they then tell us how many fish have died in their so-called care, almost as if the deaths of living creatures was inevitable, or at least an inconvenience, if not an irritation.
People who have decades of fishkeeping experience and yet still lack the basic knowledge about the Nitrogen Cycle and basic fish welfare.
Time and time again, some people have access to a wealth of aquarist knowledge and seem to completely disregard it.
They tell us just how much they want the best for their fish, or that they love their 'babies'...and then tell us about their penchant for overstocking, or doing what they thought to be best, (in spite of...), or quote some obscure and easily disproven pile of excreta from a male bovine to support their basically stupid and, sadly, fish-harming decisions.

I sometimes think that those few of us who actually understand the issues spend too much time mincing around issues, too afraid to cause upset, when some people should quite simply be told to stop killing fish and to take up another hobby that doesn't involve accountability for the lives of others.

Even now, as I type this, I can imagine some members thinking how harsh or arrogant I am to suggest such a thing and I put it to them that they are part of the problem and that their support of idiots facilitates more fishy suffering.

Now I've got that off my chest , I can sign off and go and start a night **** with a clear head.

 

[Jan Cavalieri]

I'm sorry I can't think of a single person on this forum that gives advice to others that doesn't understand the nitrogen cycle and basic fish welfare. I haven't read anybody say they are overstocking. (jhave you seen the youtube videos - these are sellers for the most part but they constantly overstock - putting 50 fish in 10 gallon tank - because they are going to sell them. Are you talking about people that pretend to be experienced but make the same mistakes over and over? I'm not experienced, but that would be me - I continue to over-feed my fish which in turn causes water issues. I just can't stop putting food in until I see that every fish or creature has eaten something, I know the nitrogen cycle in my sleep but have counseled people on how to help their fish survive when they've added them without their tank being cycled. In fact I just did it myself when a company I purchased fish from sent me 2 Betta and I had only one 5 gallon Betta tank. Had to go out and buy another tank, filter and heater and add bacteria and other chemicals to throw it into cycling while it had a fish in it. Unlike many of the videos I see on youtube.com I DON't believe in cycling a tank with live fish unless it's too late and that's what you have already started doing, I don't think you were talking about me because I'm usually asking for advice, not giving it - so I think if you are going to state this stuff is happening you need to confront the ones you believe are guilty. I don't always agree with all the advice I am given (I'm not a complete idiot" but there are certainly several people whose opinion I trust - even if I don't always follow their advice - most of the time I do. If you are not going to confront people you believe are giving bad advice, then there is no point in posting what you just posted. Nobody with think you are talking about them so nothing will change. Remember that song "You're so vain, you probably think this song is about you" - do you know how many male rock stars insisted it was about them (like Mick Jagger) - in this case we'll have just the opposite and nobody that thinks it's about them.

 

[kribensis12]

I think you'll find this topic more complicated than expected. You push people to "tell others like it is" because they should know better about the the welfare of fish keeping yet you seem to be missing a basic part of human psychology.

People learn, adapt and ultimately change with people that they trust. People also trust experience and while that can be overcome, it's not easy.

Telling someone from Day 1 what a failure they've made of themselves and that they should know better is not beneficial. Why? That person does not know any of us and likely did not intend to harm the fish - at it's very basic level the person thought "it's pretty, I'd like it to be at home too". Obviously one cannot keep the fish at home if it's dead.

While I do not want to make excuses for people that are purposefully ignorant of how to care for their fish, I do think that the old adage of "you attract more flies with honey" is accurate here. If your ultimate goal is to help the most people and ultimately save the most fish - you should be careful on how you address their current situation and how what you say shapes their next move. I would argue that this careful consideration is going to save more fish than shooting people when they are down (ie. why they joined the forum) and telling them that they should know better etc.

Just my two cents.

 

[Deleted member 149562]

Old fashioned am I.....speak as I find, speak my mind and if you screw up once I will advise, screw up the same way again I will fire one barrel, screw up the same way AGAIN and you'll get both barrels

I refuse to sugarcoat things cos when you do it usually means that the advice given gets ignored......most "accidents" are caused by a lack of concentration, inability or unwillingness to follow instructions or pure arrogance of "I don't need anyone telling me what to do"

I always take the direct "you blithering idiot" approach and I ain't sorry for it.

 

[Fishmanic]

Old fashioned am I.....speak as I find, speak my mind and if you screw up once I will advise, screw up the same way again I will fire one barrel, screw up the same way AGAIN and you'll get both barrels

I refuse to sugarcoat things cos when you do it usually means that the advice given gets ignored......most "accidents" are caused by a lack of concentration, inability or unwillingness to follow instructions or pure arrogance of "I don't need anyone telling me what to do"

I always take the direct "you blithering idiot" approach and I ain't sorry for it.

I disagree with your opinion and agree with kribensis12. If you have a calm attitude when trying to explain the proper way of doing things, people will more likely listen and learn from your advice. We ask all members to respect other members. Many people come to our site to learn the proper methods of fishkeeping. We all have made mistakes in fish keeping and most learn from advice from more knowledgeable, experienced people

 

[Deleted member 149562]

I disagree with your opinion and agree with kribensis12. If you have a calm attitude when trying to explain the proper way of doing things, people will more likely listen and learn from your advice. We ask all members to respect other members. Many people come to our site to learn the proper methods of fishkeeping. We all have made mistakes in fish keeping and most learn from advice from more knowledgeable, experienced people

Fair enough

I just get tired of those people who screw up time and time and time again on the same thing despite getting plenty of good advice.

There are some people who hear but do not listen, watch but do not see

I will help people sort their issues out all day long but they have to actually "want" to be helped and not everyone does want to be helped, there are some who make the same error time and time again as a way to almost be the center of attention.

I used to rehab dogs that had been abused...I wanted to work on the investigative side but knew that I would probably punch a few abusive owners cos if you refused to listen to guidance and carried on as before, I ain't wasting my time with you.

 

[AbbeysDad]

@Bruce Leyland-Jones, I think that you're pretty much preaching to the choir in the sense that 99.9% of the participants on this forum are not among those you describe. Most of us here with experience go out of our way to educate newer hobbyists in the best ways to manage aquariums and livestock. I have a website/blog dedicated to that very purpose.
---
Oh I know there are many wanna be gurus out there that parrot what they've heard or seen posted, pretending it's their knowledge, but I think it's very rare on this forum. Just my $.02

 

[itiwhetu]

My little input to this is to the so called experts that stamp down their authority on this site, contributing information that is:
1: unhelpful
2: That is in way to much detail
3: That is stated in away the is an absolute
This hobby is about personal experiences about knowledge gained by observation and by interpretation of those observations.
We all see things differently nothing in this hobby is an absolute. Coming here and saying anything is a "Fact" is very dangerous.

"The White man drew a small circle in the sand and told the red man 'This is what the Indian knows' and drawing a big circle around the small one ' This is what the white man knows' The Indian took the stick and swept an immense ring around both circles ' This is where the white man and the red man know nothing'

 

[nik_n]

I'm tired of hearing fishkeepers tell me how 'experienced' they are in keeping fish, when they then tell us how many fish have died in their so-called care, almost as if the deaths of living creatures was inevitable, or at least an inconvenience, if not an irritation.
People who have decades of fishkeeping experience and yet still lack the basic knowledge about the Nitrogen Cycle and basic fish welfare.
Time and time again, some people have access to a wealth of aquarist knowledge and seem to completely disregard it.
They tell us just how much they want the best for their fish, or that they love their 'babies'...and then tell us about their penchant for overstocking, or doing what they thought to be best, (in spite of...), or quote some obscure and easily disproven pile of excreta from a male bovine to support their basically stupid and, sadly, fish-harming decisions.

I sometimes think that those few of us who actually understand the issues spend too much time mincing around issues, too afraid to cause upset, when some people should quite simply be told to stop killing fish and to take up another hobby that doesn't involve accountability for the lives of others.

Even now, as I type this, I can imagine some members thinking how harsh or arrogant I am to suggest such a thing and I put it to them that they are part of the problem and that their support of idiots facilitates more fishy suffering.

Now I've got that off my chest , I can sign off and go and start a night **** with a clear head.

I'm assuming this is referring to stubborn people who refuse to learn form their past mistakes. What exactly do you mean by knowledge? If you are talking about research, I agree it important to prevent some beginner and easily avoidable mistakes. But knowledge can be obtained from both experience and research (and the mixture of both). Experience is be a better teacher, because everyone has different conditions of their water and their goals, so learning from your own mistakes is more beneficial for an individual.

I agree with you about confronting the people claiming they are experienced even if they knowingly do things the wrong way and hurt their fish as a result. These people should be confronted but not aggressively as it comes across as threatening. This will put off people form joining the hobby. Some might argue that we don't want people like this in the hobby, whit what I agree, but we have to think about the message we are trying to get across. We do not want new comers to think there is a toxic community around this hobby because of the way we treat our members.

Toxic hobbyists are one of the worst things about this hobby. Many people take out their aggression on beginners by being brutally honest and not allowing them to make mistakes. Making mistakes is a necessary part of the hobby and it's the way how the hobby grows and evolves. An important thing to keep in mind is that not all beginners are exposed to necessary info as many pet shops don't have qualified personnel. Of course everyone joining the hobby should do research before getting a tank and fish.

 

[AbbeysDad]

I'm tired of hearing fishkeepers tell me how 'experienced' they are in keeping fish, when they then tell us how many fish have died in their so-called care, almost as if the deaths of living creatures was inevitable, or at least an inconvenience, if not an irritation.

Perhaps you could site some specific examples or links to threads that caused you to feel this way and write this post.
Frankly, I've been frequenting this forum for some time now and don't recall seeing what you describe...but my focus has typically been in 'tropical discussion' so I don't examine threads in every category.

 

[WhistlingBadger]

I get the idea (Bruce can correct me if I'm wrong) that the OP was not directed at this forum in particular, just a bit of a rant about youtubers and pet shop employees and other self-proclaimed experts.

I will occasionally talk about the many fish I've killed as a mark of my "experience," but I recount those stories with chagrin, as difficult learning experiences.

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

I think you'll find this topic more complicated than expected. You push people to "tell others like it is" because they should know better about the the welfare of fish keeping yet you seem to be missing a basic part of human psychology.

People learn, adapt and ultimately change with people that they trust. People also trust experience and while that can be overcome, it's not easy.

Telling someone from Day 1 what a failure they've made of themselves and that they should know better is not beneficial. Why? That person does not know any of us and likely did not intend to harm the fish - at it's very basic level the person thought "it's pretty, I'd like it to be at home too". Obviously one cannot keep the fish at home if it's dead.

While I do not want to make excuses for people that are purposefully ignorant of how to care for their fish, I do think that the old adage of "you attract more flies with honey" is accurate here. If your ultimate goal is to help the most people and ultimately save the most fish - you should be careful on how you address their current situation and how what you say shapes their next move. I would argue that this careful consideration is going to save more fish than shooting people when they are down (ie. why they joined the forum) and telling them that they should know better etc.

Just my two cents.

On the money! I agree with this. I have a lot of time for beginners to the hobby especially, who have been misguided by bad advice or the abundant misinformation online. We were all beginners once, and I doubt that there's anyone in the hobby who has a flawless track record, who has never made a mistake that was fatal to fish. Even experienced hobbyists can make an error, and if they acknowledge that, then attacking them for that is only going to make them feel defensive and retreat - not help anyone learn.

We've likely all seen groups or forums where people are lept on and torn apart for errors they've made. It doesn't generally promote a healthy, friendly and helpful culture... in fact it gets toxic fast.

This hobby is about personal experiences about knowledge gained by observation and by interpretation of those observations.
We all see things differently nothing in this hobby is an absolute. Coming here and saying anything is a "Fact" is very dangerous.

Well, some things are a matter of fact. This hobby involves a lot of biology, chemistry etc. There are plenty of facts that are absolute and not a matter of opinion, many regarding water chemistry or plant nutritional requirements would be two obvious ones off the top of my head. You could argue that the Earth is flat all day, but there's zero evidence to support that, and it's not just a matter of opinion and experience.

That a given percentage *amount* of ammonia is more diluted in a 20g than in a 5 gallon is just a fact of chemistry, whether someone likes that or not.

(edited the percentage/amount mistake I'd made and been helpfully corrected on below! Because the maths there is also fact, not a debatable opinion based on experience!)

These people should be confronted but not aggressively as it comes across as threatening. This will put off people form joining the hobby. Some might argue that we don't want people like this in the hobby, whit what I agree, but we have to think about the message we are trying to get across. We do not want new comers to think there is a toxic community around this hobby because of the way we treat our members.

Toxic hobbyists are one of the worst things about this hobby. Many people take out their aggression on beginners by being brutally honest and not allowing them to make mistakes. Making mistakes is a necessary part of the hobby and it's the way how the hobby grows and evolves. An important thing to keep in mind is that not all beginners are exposed to necessary info as many pet shops don't have qualified personnel. Of course everyone joining the hobby should do research before getting a tank and fish.

Yes! We also have to be aware that for every member participating in a thread, there are hundreds of lurkers. Just compare any threads view count with the amount of people actively involved in the thread. It's easy to think we're just talking among ourselves, and easy to forget just how many people lurk and read - they're very unlikely to join to ask for help or share their own mistakes in the hope of helping others, if what they see is members aggressively telling people they're terrible and should quit the hobby.

 

[NannaLou]

I sometimes think that those few of us who actually understand the issues spend too much time mincing around issues, too afraid to cause upset, when some people should quite simply be told to stop killing fish and to take up another hobby that doesn't involve accountability for the lives of others.

I think it’s not about ‘mincing around issues’ it’s being careful of other people’s feelings. I’d killed to fish before finding this forum based on the advice of “experts” that said running the filter for 10 days or so would mean the water was safe. I still don’t recall them ever mentioning “cycling”, if you don’t know something exists - how can you research it?

How do we know how much of an expert anyone is..? On this site you report to be an expert in mental health, dealing with accidents and clinically/medically trained as well as fish keeping…what exactly are your fish keeping qualifications..? How would they rank against ummmm.. @Byron, @Colin_T, @Essjay …? It was the time and patience shown by @Essjay that taught me the nitrogen cycle and how to cycle my tank.

We have the ongoing debate about Betta fish and whether they should be in a community tank or not, some people’s experiences say this works, as @itiwhetu states observation and interpretation provides “knowledge”. I wonder how many people would know that a mug of tea stays hot enough to scald a small child for about 20 minutes, and how many adults get that knowledge after an accident..? Or how many people would know to use the back of their hand in a dark, smoke-filled room when ‘feeling’ for a door or way out..? Some knowledge is very specific and “narrow”, in my opinion fish keeping falls into that category. I’d politely suggest that you’re on the wrong forum if you have such a low opinion of the other members and we are all annoying to the extent that you made this post.

That a given percentage of ammonia is more diluted in a 20g than in a 5 gallon is just a fact of chemistry, whether someone likes that or not.

And again, we have this type of comment (sorry @AdoraBelle Dearheart I don’t mean to draw you into this conversation) but a percentage will be the same regardless of tank size, 2% is 2% whether it’s in a teacup or swimming pool. A set amount (5mls) will be more diluted the larger the volume of water it is mixed with.

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

And again, we have this type of comment (sorry @AdoraBelle Dearheart I don’t mean to draw you into this conversation) but a percentage will be the same regardless of tank size, 2% is 2% whether it’s in a teacup or swimming pool. A set amount (5mls) will be more diluted the larger the volume of water it is mixed with.

Ha! Don't be sorry, you're right! I meant set amount, percentage was definitely the wrong word to use

And had I slipped up like that why trying to help someone in a thread, I'd want to be corrected there too. People here knew what I meant, but a lot of us will try to help someone who's having a tank emergency and has been misinformed, and if we make a silly mistake like this, or repeat misinformation ourselves, it's good that others can correct us without being mean about it. And NannaLou did it without telling me I'm a moron who should leave the forum or the hobby.

 

[NannaLou]

Ha! Don't be sorry, you're right! I meant set amount, percentage was definitely the wrong word to use

And had I slipped up like that why trying to help someone in a thread, I'd want to be corrected there too. People here knew what I meant, but a lot of us will try to help someone who's having a tank emergency and has been misinformed, and if we make a silly mistake like this, or repeat misinformation ourselves, it's good that others can correct us without being mean about it. And NannaLou did it without telling me I'm a moron who should leave the forum or the hobby.

That’s the thing though, we do our best to give the correct advice and help, but in a moment of distraction can easily slip in a wrong word …I wonder how many times nitrites and nitrates get muddled…?