Desperately need advice - sorry very long

[Deb]

I haven't posted for a long time but have been lurking......now I'm here asking for some help. I'm continuing to have fish deaths in my 20 gallon tank Here's some history -

Tank was set up Dec '04. Added 3 Black skirt tetras - I still have these 3 but this morning the largest of the 3 (about 2") was not looking good. These 3 fish lived through the cycling and have been my healthiest fish. Over the last several months, I've gone through more fish in that tank than I care to count. After cycling I had added 6 rainbow danios and 3 marigold swordtails (added over a period of a couple of weeks). They all lived for a couple of months but eventually the danios turned aggressive with each other and I eventually lost all of them. The swordtails were repeatedly developing fin rot and eventually I lost all 3. I then left the tank with just the 3 blackskirts for a couple of months wanting to make sure that everything was stable. I then added 3 penquin tetras and after a week or so added 3 of something else (I can't remember what now). That was about 3 or 4 months ago. At that time, I had my water checked by the LFS and everything was fine. I have also tried live plants as I know they make the tank healthier but have had little success with them. The tank has 3 small live plants but the rest are silk. It's just getting too expensive to continue adding plants Let me just add here that my water readings have always been really good - until most recently 0.00 on ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. So after losing all but one penguin tetra and the other 3 (the last penguin tetra is in my smaller tank) I again had the water tested and it was fine. I was having aggression issues with the blackskirts going after the other fish so put those deaths off to that. I went back to the LFS (very well respected establishment) and talked to the fish guy. He recommended adding 5 faster fish so added dwarf rainbow tetras. I also needed to add an algae eater so added 2 small plecos. That was about 2 1/2 weeks ago. Since then I have lost both plecos and 3 of the rainbow tetras. And as mentioned earlier, one of the blackskirts is looking bloated and not healthy - but I noticed this as I was running out the door to work. I had been away so haven't done a water change for almost 2 weeks. I checked the readings last night and they are: ammonia 0.00, nitrite less than .03 ppm, nitrate approximately 5 ppm. From my conversations with the LFS guy, he has assured me that this is fine. And given the lack of live plants I would expect the nitrite and nitrate to have a low reading but not be 0.00. Our pH is also close to 8.0 but that's due to our local water and when I've discussed this with our LFS guys, they tell me that they acclimate all their fish to this pH level and that it should be just fine. I'll be doing my regular maintenance on both the 10 and the 20 tonight. As an aside, I had lost some fish several months ago in the 10 gallon but it's been really healthy and the fish look good so it seems to be an issue specific to the 20 gallon. Whenever I've added fish, I'm also very open about what my issues have been and what the current content/conditions of the tank are. Am I getting bad advice from the LFS??

I'm pretty much at my wits end and will not be adding any other fish until I can figure out where to go from here. I'm really tired of killing fish and not knowing why I'm almost to the point of wanting to tear the tank down, redo and start over. In the start over plans though is the thought of trying to get some live plants established and healthy and then adding fish a few at a time. I'm not sure what the best course of action is.

I know that there are lots of knowledgeable people out there who always give good advice - I hope someone has some for me

Thanks......Deb

 

[annka5]

Oh grim, it's really waring when you have a run of things going wrong.
This might be a small thing, but it will make your shoaling fish feel more comfortable to be in a larger group -maybe when this passes you could look at that. However, its fair to assume that this will not be enough to cause most fish to pine away within a couple of months -am no expert on penguin tetra though! The danio's may have suffered from wanting to be in a bigger tank. Again, personally I am not convinced this would cause levels of aggression adequate to kill them.
Nitrite readings should be zero. However, 0.03 ppm will show as zero on a lot of tests, and that alone so long as its not a permanent state, shouldn't really cause much harm, esp in more alkaline water.
Other things you might want to think about:
Is your tank anywhere that chemicals etc could enter the water? e.g. perfume spray, any kind of aerosol, maybe air freshners? Do you clean the outside glass with any chemical? When you do a water change, could there be detergent left in whatever containers you use?
Is your tank anywhere that gets any vibration? eg near speakers, on a kitchen worktop (e.g. washing machine or dishwasher, even if not directly underneath)?
How about your feeding regime - do you ever feed live foods? Frozen or fresh? it is possible to introduce pathogens with still-wriggling live food e.g. that sold at LFS. A diet of flake only is not good for the digestion though, so vegetable foodstuffs or frozen live foods can be a good idea.
Are any of your decorations potentially problematic? e.g. traces of heavy metals in the rocks used?
Could your temp in the tank be fluctuating significantly -e.g. is it in window, near a radiator, is the heater a high enough wattage fot the size of tank, is there a decent flow of air around the heater?
What temp is the tank at?

 

[Xtech]

What's your hardness, KH and GH? Your ph is high, especially for tetras.

 

[rdd1952]

It's puzzling what the problem could be. One thing that is odd is that you say your nitrates usually run at 0. Unless you have a lot of live plants, your tank should always have nitrates unless it is very lightly stocked or it isn't cycled. How long after you add new fish have you been losing them? Are you using dechlorinator (I'm sure you are since the original 3 tetras have survived but just wanted to ask)?

As for the aggressiveness, some schooling species, tetras included, can be aggressive when kept in small groups. They school for protection and when there aren't enough to school, they will show some aggression in an attempt to stay safe. Annka5 may have hit on the most likely answer in cleaners or the like that have gotten into the tank. What type filter do you have and what temperature do you keep the heater set on?

 

[Deb]

Thanks so much for the replys so far. I'll try to answer some of the questions that were asked to maybe get more clarity on the situation.

In reply to Annka5:
No the tank isn't near any place that chemicals could enter the water. I'm also very careful to wash my hands and arms if I will have them in the water. I don't generally clean the outside of the tank with anything other than a damp cloth. The exception to this was last week when I put a little windex on a piece of paper towel and wiped the one side of the tank. I was very careful not to spray near the tank or to wipe near the top - just mid way down on the side. As far as when I change the water and any possible detergent residue - everything (buckets/measuring cups) that I use when doing a water change are specifically used for that purpose and nothing else. They've never had detergent in them and I dry them with a clean towel when I'm done. The tank is against an outside wall and doesn't get any vibration or exposure to sunlight. I generally feed a dried micro pellet that is vegetable base and supplement with dried shrimp or dried blood worms once or twice a week. I don't think there should be any problem with the decorations - I have a fake log that appears to be fine although I'll have a closer look tonight and silk plants. The tank is consistently at 77 degrees with no fluctuations. Hope that helps........

In response to Xtech:
I don't know specifically what the hardness is but it's not soft. As are as KH and GH - I'm feeling really dumb here but what do those stand for?? As far as the high pH, yes I realize it's high especially for tetras but when I inquired about lowering it at the LFS, they told me that that's the normal pH for tanks in the city and that they acclimate all their fish to that pH before selling so not to worry about it. I'm somewhat suspicious about that answer now......

In response to rdd1952:
My Nitrates were running at 0.00 when the plants were alive, now that I'm down to very few (last survivors) the nitrate level is higher but still only around 5 ppm. Generally after I add fish I'll see maybe one loss in the first month and then the rest in the 2 to 3 months after adding. This last batch (5 fish) were in the tank just over 2 weeks. I've never lost this many this quickly. Yes I use dechlorinator as well as adding Cycle and aquarium salt whenever I do a water change. The filter is an Aquaclear Mini with 2 squares of filter foam to one package of charcoal. Now that I type that, that is a change that I made about 2 months ago after discussion with the LFS guy. I had only had one square of filter foam and 1 package of charcoal as it's designed. His recommendation was to add another square of foam as he felt that the one to one (foam to charcoal) was too much charcoal. Could this be causing the problem??? The tank is at a consistent 77 degrees.

Hope my answers help.......

Thanks again for the input.

Deb

 

[dwarfgourami]

"I don't know specifically what the hardness is but it's not soft. As are as KH and GH - I'm feeling really dumb here but what do those stand for?? As far as the high pH, yes I realize it's high especially for tetras but when I inquired about lowering it at the LFS, they told me that that's the normal pH for tanks in the city and that they acclimate all their fish to that pH before selling so not to worry about it. I'm somewhat suspicious about that answer now....."

Well, I think your lfs has a point here. If a ph of 8 was impossibly high noone would be able to keep tetras in the Southeast of England, and people clearly do. My lfs's also keep theirs in tap water. a PH of 8 is also supposed to be too high for my corydoras but they don't know that so are happily spawning all over the place.

I think there must be something else wrong with your tank. Are there any symptoms at all showing in your fish or do you just find previously healthy-looking fish dead in the tank? You mentioned one of the tetras being bloated- have they all shown similar symptoms? I am wondering about parasites or bacteria...but don't really know enough about the subject. It seems to be something that needs a certain time to develop; they don't collapse in shock on entering your tank, so that would be another reason to suspect disease rather than water hardness/ph.

 

[cyprinut]

Hi Deb-
What do you treat the water with? Specifically how do you go about changing water? Do you vacuum the gravel, too? Ever noticed a rotten-egg smell? That would be Hydrogen Sulfide (HS), deadly to fish. Do you ever move the decor and gravel vac under them?
Sorry, just fishing here (pardon the pun).
Do you have a cat? If so, could it be terrorizing the fish, or reaching into the water while you are gone? It would introduce tons of strange bacteria (for a tank).

 

[rdd1952]

Yes I use dechlorinator as well as adding Cycle and aquarium salt whenever I do a water change.

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I doubt that this is the main reason you are losing fish but all the fish you have are freshwater so they don't need salt. I would stop adding salt to the tank. I have never used salt in any of my tanks (I have corys so I couldn't if I wanted to anyway).

Also, there is a lot of debate over whether Cycle works at all (consensus is that it doesn't). You can stop using it too. Once the tank is cycled, you don't need a bacteria starter any more any way. The bacteria colonize on surfaces, mainly in the filter and media. There aren't any present in the water so doing water changes doesn't remove any beneficial bacteria.

I'm not real familiar with the filter you have but believe they are good quality. I don't think the foam or the charcoal/carbon would be a problem as long as you are changing the carbon ever so often. Most people only use the carbon to remove medications after treating their tank. They use other things for filter media rather than carbon.

 

[Deb]

Quote: "What do you treat the water with? Specifically how do you go about changing water? Do you vacuum the gravel, too? Ever noticed a rotten-egg smell? That would be Hydrogen Sulfide (HS), deadly to fish. Do you ever move the decor and gravel vac under them?
Sorry, just fishing here (pardon the pun).
Do you have a cat? If so, could it be terrorizing the fish, or reaching into the water while you are gone? It would introduce tons of strange bacteria (for a tank)."

.......I treat the water with I believe Aquaclear (I'm at work so don't have the bottle in front of me ); I also add aquarium salt and Cycle. When I change the water I basically vac the gravel and yes periodically move the decor although not every time. There's no rotten-egg smell. I do have a cat but she could care less about the fish and there's no way she can access the tank to get a paw in. In fact, she's so big if she tried to jump on the tank or sit on it I would be coming home to a huge mess

Quote: "Are there any symptoms at all showing in your fish or do you just find previously healthy-looking fish dead in the tank? You mentioned one of the tetras being bloated- have they all shown similar symptoms? I am wondering about parasites or bacteria...but don't really know enough about the subject. It seems to be something that needs a certain time to develop; they don't collapse in shock on entering your tank, so that would be another reason to suspect disease rather than water hardness/ph."

.......There really are no symptoms until I see a fish that was previously healthy being less active and then ending up dead. The one tetra that's looking bloating I first put off to being overfed by my husband while I was away I now don't really think that was the problem as the two rainbows that were dead this morning we looking a little bloated. I'm really starting to lean towards disease of some sort. And no, they don't die as soon as they hit the tank. Although the last 5 in two weeks is the fastest I've ever lost them.

At this point I'm really leaning towards starting over with the tank

 

[Deb]

"I doubt that this is the main reason you are losing fish but all the fish you have are freshwater so they don't need salt. I would stop adding salt to the tank. I have never used salt in any of my tanks (I have corys so I couldn't if I wanted to anyway)."

That's interesting.......I was advised that all tanks need salt - even freshwater. That might definitely be contributing to the problem. Two of the fish I lost were placos and one was very shortly after the last water change in which I added salt. If I shouldn't be using salt it could just be contributing to the problem and leading to the early death of my fish!!! Interesting though that the blackskirts have lasted this long as I've been adding salt at water changes since about March or April. Thanks so much for that piece of information. And from your post the corys don't handle salt which would explain the death of my 3 dwarf corys in the healthy 10 gallon tank!!!

 

[rdd1952]

And from your post the corys don't handle salt which would explain the death of my 3 dwarf corys in the healthy 10 gallon tank!!!

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Plecos can handle some salt but Corys are definitely intolerant of salt. They are scaleless so it burns their skin. Another problem with salt is that it will build up in the tank becasue of evaporation. Only the water evaporates. Salt and other minerals stay in the water that is left. So if a gallon of water evaporates between water changes, you're tank now has 1 gallon less water but all the salt. Over time, this leads to a build up of salt.

People that have marine tanks have to top the water off everyday with tap water (or more like Reverse Osmosis water) to keep the salinity level stable. Otherwise, the salt content of the water would continue to climb between water changes as more water evaporated.

 

[sylvia]

I haven't read everyone's posts but I have read al of yours so sorry if I'm repeating anything someone's already said...

First of all, what's wrong with the blakskirt you mentioned? If you can give a detailed description we could possibly determine whether it's a disease.

Besides stopping the salt, I'd also stop adding Cycle (I think someone mentioned that) as you are also effectively adding extra ammonia to the tank each time. Also, carbon/charcoal does not work for a very long time. Try taking that out as well. You don't realy need it (search the forum to read some more about this if you wish). It's good for removing meds. after treatment and things like that but doesn't stay active for more than a couple of months - at which point it starts releasing everything it absorbed in the first place back into the water. If you replace the carbon with another bit of sponge, you'll be able to make your biological filtration that bit more efficient.

Hopefuly you already know not to rinse out your filter media in tap water and not to replace it as per manufacturer's instructions as this causes a re-cycle. Instead, you need to rinse the sponges out in old tank water (from a water change) if the filter gets clogged. Simple things like this can make a huge difference.

Also should point out that most plecs grow way too big for either a 10 or 20 gallon so don't buy any more. If you have an algae problem, your water probably contains too many nutrients - which suggests over-feeding or not enough water changes. However, it sounds like your maintainance routine is up to standard so perhaps your problem is too much light instead. An algae scraper is the best solution - avoid getting a fish to solve your algae problems if that's your only excuse for purchasing it.

Any amount of nitrIte is poisonous. It's ok to have nitrAtes (try to keep them under 40 - prefferably under 20) but ammonia and nitrIte should always be 0. Your reading of >0 for nitrIte suggests you had a re-cycle occur at some point - which brings me to your asking the LFS for water tests. Get your own liquid-based test kit. Avoid the paper strips as they lack accuracy and don't work well for long. The liquid-based ones are more expensive but are better value for money as they are more accurate, last longer and work fine pretty much indefinately.

What do you feed your fish? Try to vary their diet and include some frozen or live foods such as daphnia, bloodworms or brine shrimp as these will all improve your fish' health and thus their immune systems.

Also, your pH is fine - don't attempt to alter it. A steady pH is always better than a 'correct' but unstable one. My pH is also near 8.0 (7.8) and I've never had to alter it (except for breeding purposes).

I'm aware that the above are all pretty random comments and suggestions but maybe something will be of use to you. Once you have your tank under control again, I'd add 3 more skirts before considering tankmates. Keep in mind that skirts are rather nippy so avoid fish like hatchets, gouramies or guppies which are prone to being nipped or bullied.

MAke sure you research ALL fish BEFORE purchase.

 

[sylvia]

Sorry to double post but that weird smilie was meant to be 7.8 in brackets.

 

[colen]

What type of filter are you using?
How often do you clean the filter media? How do you go about cleaning and or replacing the filter media.

I ask this because years ago when I started my first tank up I had similar problems. Instead of properly cleaning my filter media I would just replace it on a monthly basis. At the time I thought I was doing good, thought the cleaner the media/more often it was replaced the better... however I was very wrong.

Could this at all be a chance? Maybe you are putting your tank into mini cycles and stressing the fish?

Also I am pretty sure adding salt or having salt in the water with plecos will kill them off. I'm sure someone can confirm this for you though.

 

[Discomafia]

Yeah, plecos can't handle the salt.

There's a pinned topic in the catfish forum...

http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=7380