Debate

[jollysue]

Just some curious questions: What is the average life span of a pro fighter? Do you ever have trouble with fin rot?

I just lost most of my stock to fin rot. I have not been able to get a handle on it. It looked like it was over and a fellow jumped a divider and fought his neighbor. The neighbor died very soon. I am being fairly carful right now with my fingers crossed that my remaining boys and girls (three boys from Synirr and 2 girls from splashluff) don't get it.

 

[_cRaCkEr_]

Just some curious questions: What is the average life span of a pro fighter? Do you ever have trouble with fin rot?

I just lost most of my stock to fin rot. I have not been able to get a handle on it. It looked like it was over and a fellow jumped a divider and fought his neighbor. The neighbor died very soon. I am being fairly carful right now with my fingers crossed that my remaining boys and girls (three boys from Synirr and 2 girls from splashluff) don't get it.

Well I had one like he was 4-1/2 years old before he died. Fin Rot I only encounter this with my HMs but not so often and never with my Pks and Cts.

 

[OohFeeshy]

OOI Cracker (and to do with the debate), what sort of containers do breeders in your area use to jar fry? Seeing things like 32oz cups on Aquabid for 'jarring fry' made me wonder what they keep them in.

 

[jollysue]

How often do you change the water?

 

[_cRaCkEr_]

OOI Cracker (and to do with the debate), what sort of containers do breeders in your area use to jar fry? Seeing things like 32oz cups on Aquabid for 'jarring fry' made me wonder what they keep them in.

Well some put them in plastic cups, some in 1 gal tank.

How often do you change the water?

Depends ... I'm too lazy sometimes 1 x a week or 1 x a month depends on my mood and depends on what bettas.

 

[jollysue]

And the fighters in the .5 usgs?

 

[catsmakemebark]

"That should tell you something...

One wonders, if such large tanks are prefered, why most breeders advocate keeping them in 10 gallons or less, not out of necessaity due to lack of space, but as the preferable housing? These are people who know these fish best. Fact of the matter is, bettas are domesticated animals, the evidence of that is clear when you compare one to its wild counterpart. I wouldn't dream of keeping one of the wild species in anything less than 10 gallons, but a regular ol' domestic splendens? Absolutely. Especially with the long-finned varieties, when you get over 10 gallons or so, you run the risk of the fish stressing itself out. It varies by individual fish of course, but these fish were historically bred for their aggressive and territorial nature, which most retain to one degree or another to this day. Most are hyper-territorial and feel the need to patrol their territory constantly -- which can include the entire tank -- and when the fish has massive, heavy finnage, this can be a problem."

It tells me that the majority of people hear need to do a little more research.

I've had many betta's that love to patrol and they all enjoyed having more territory. They had no trouble what so ever with patroling. I have put some in smaller tanks for quarentine and they hated it. All they did was sit at the bottom. Betta's are fish, they can swim, if they get tired of swimming they can rest.

If you cant afford that many big tanks then maybe you should stop breeding. Tell me this. What do you acheive in betta breeding that the species can benifit from. I dont care about pretty colors and fancy fines. Personal I love natural unaltered animals. I love how they were made and didnt try to change them because I want to make them pretty. They are all beautiful. I can understand breeding when it is to help the species, like to keep it going, or strengthing it, but breeding for color, looks, or fighting, is a selfish hobbie.

 

[Kame-San]

catsmakemebark, what kind of bettas do you have? What size are their fins? How much does it weigh them down?

You don't know much about the people here yet, being new, and how we work. I think I speak for all of us when I say I don't like being told I'm wrong when I know I'm right, and I also don't like being told I'm making my fish miserable when it couldn't be happier.

There are quite a few breeders on here and I know each and every one of them has the fish's best interest at heart. They wouldn't keep a fish in a tank that makes the fish unhappy. You have no right to tell someone they need to do more research, when they clearly know more than you do.

I would like to say a lot more, but I don't want to get in trouble with the mods. So that's all.

 

[starrynightxxi]

now, you don't have to believe me - though i don't know what i would gain by lying about it - but my fish do all the same things that your friends said they measured their fish's happiness by. They hide in their plants and make and guard their bubblenests, they patrol their territories, they play a sort of tag like game with my finger, they get to flare at one another on occasion, they beg for food when i walk by, and although i don't feed live food, they still get to hunt their dinner: (thawed out) frozen blood worms on the end of a hairpin and dragged through the water for them to stalk.

you may not agree with the size tank they are in, but they are lacking nothing for stimulation or care in any other respect, and like RandomWiktor said, there are much more worthy causes than this one.


Finally, if you prefer wild types and are so against the fancy varieties of betta, then why is it you own those fancy types instead of the wild ones? And why would you support your sister in her hopes to some day breed fancy bettas? She may find good homes for all of them, but that is still propogating a type of fish that is purely aesthetic.

I'm not trying to prove you wrong or make you look like a fool so please don't take it that way, and I'm not trying to make you angry, I'm only asking questions that i feel are reasonable and might bring something new into this conversation as going in circles like this is tiring. We know where you stand, you know where we stand, and niether of us is likely to step down from there.

 

[tank212]

If you cant afford that many big tanks then maybe you should stop breeding. Tell me this. What do you acheive in betta breeding that the species can benifit from. I dont care about pretty colors and fancy fines. Personal I love natural unaltered animals. I love how they were made and didnt try to change them because I want to make them pretty. They are all beautiful. I can understand breeding when it is to help the species, like to keep it going, or strengthing it, but breeding for color, looks, or fighting, is a selfish hobbie.

How is it a selfish hobby? Every breeder makes sure their fish is in tip top condition. The bettas they raise are raised with love and the utmost care. They also make sure to provide them with good homes where they can live a happy life. MOST breeders of any type of fish breed to strengthen the lines while trying to develop new colors and these are responsible breeders and NOT selfish they are providing their community and others healthy fish that will live a happy life with their new owner. This topic is taking a turn for the worse because now instead of having a simple debate of tank size you're now bashing breeders,calling us selfish, alot of whom are on this forum including myself.

 

[wuvmybetta]

meh, he already lowballed breeders a few pages back. In my opinion, fishkeeping in itself is a selfish hobby, so..

I've had many betta's that love to patrol and they all enjoyed having more territory. They had no trouble what so ever with patroling.

hmm, good word. Patroling. That is exactly what I've seen/heard a lot of bettas in big tanks do. I've also argued the point that bettas who live in too large of a tank literally exhaust and swim themselves to death. I'm in no position to offer scientific proof of this ,mind you. This has always been my personal opinion that fish who patrol like that do quite literally wear themselves out and almost cut their life expectancy in half. Again, this is only my personal observation. Anyone who has kept a betta in a large tank (50g+) for over three to four years is welcome to prove me wrong or say different.

Saying these fish are meant to swim like that is sort of a moot point, since you will never find such long finned fish in any natural habitat. The natural habitat of fancy long finned bettas looks something like a dixie cup in size. Or the fishroom of the breeder to whom they're born to.

 

[guppymommy]

It tells me that the majority of people hear need to do a little more research.

Okay, I'm relatively new to the betta hobby/breeding but you can bet that I have done (and continue to do)PLENTY of research! Nothing I've read has proven the things you've said during this "debate." I've never read in a book or on a forum that bettas HAVE to be in 5+ gallons (until you stated so). I am learning more each day (and much of it from the wonderful members of this board and the IBC) and I've not heard anyone but you INSIST that bettas need to be kept the way you suggest. I appreciate that this is your opinion and I also appreciate that your friends on the pethub forum agree with you. I'm glad that your bettas can live in 5+ gallons and be happy. I am not arguing with you on this point as I'm sure your bettas are happy.

However, I DO have a problem with your insistence that yours is the ONLY "right" way to keep bettas. My bettas in 2.5 and 2 gallon tanks are just as happy as yours are, I assure you! I even had one of my bettas in my 55 gallon community tank when I first got him. He chased the other fish relentlessly and by the end of the first day he was exhausted, his fins were shredded, and he ended up drifting to the filter intake where he stayed until I rescued him. I immediately moved him and he is MUCH happier in the 2.5 gallon tank and has NO MORE SHREDDED FINS (imagine that!)!

I also take issue with the declaration "that the majority of people hear" (which should be spelled here by the way ) "need to do a little more research." I also don't appreciate you telling us that if we can't afford "that many big tanks" that maybe we "should stop breeding." I can't afford to house 500+ fry in 5+ gallon tanks for each fry. I wish I had a HUGE fish room to do this, but I don't (and I don't feel it is necessary).

The "domestic" bettas were created for asthetic purposes and therefore there is nothing wrong with breeding to improve the "looks" of the fish, in my opinion.

And if these breeders didn't breed to improve looks etc., where would you and your friends get the bettas swimming in your tanks? Do you keep the "wild" bettas? If not, you purchased the betta for its looks in the first place so why are you knocking those that breed these beautiful fish in order to supply customers such as yourself?

I am just starting to get into breeding and have been researching betta genetics . . . have you researched genetics? Do you know what type of betta you have? If not, how do you know what is best for it or what type of environment it came from in the first place? If it is a "fancy" betta, chances are it never lived in a "natural" invironment in the first place.

IN all fairness, you can't declare that the "majority" of us on this board "need to do more research." Have you done a poll to see how many years of experience each member on the board has with bettas? Have you investigated each member of this board to determine that the "majority" of us are inexperienced and need to do more research? I say you are wrong in this assumption. I think you'll find that the MAJORITY of members on this board have much more experience and have done more research than you give them credit for.

Edit I see wuv posted while I was writing my lengthy reply and stated some of the same things I did. Sorry 'bout the repeat. As you will see, my personal experience with the betta in the 55 gallon tank didn't go so well and I agree with wuv that it was due to the fish patrolling himself nearly to death.

 

[jollysue]

Personal experience is called experiential evidence. It is not given much weight in scientific research. Most of what we are doing in this thread (pica_nuttalli aside) is experiential and could I suppose be considered experiential research.

 

[Jonz]

There are people here with 20+ years experience with these fish.

And you can learn something new everyday.

Just today I learned to put my fish out of their misery with clove oil which was a technique Id never heard before.

Theres a difference between being opinionated and just plain rude and or obnoxious.

 

[lisie]

If you cant afford that many big tanks then maybe you should stop breeding. Tell me this. What do you acheive in betta breeding that the species can benifit from. I dont care about pretty colors and fancy fines. Personal I love natural unaltered animals. I love how they were made and didnt try to change them because I want to make them pretty. They are all beautiful. I can understand breeding when it is to help the species, like to keep it going, or strengthing it, but breeding for color, looks, or fighting, is a selfish hobbie.

I'm assuming that you own a betta splendens, and I can also be pretty darn sure you don't own a wild-type splendens... I'm also assuming that you bought your betta from a pet store, seeing as you're so against breeders...

You don't think betta breeders like the ones on this forum care about their fish more than those that mass-produce fish for pet stores? Maybe you should consider that before you bash betta breeders that actually seek to improve the species and raise healthy, beautiful fish. I for one love each and every one of my bettas-- both adults and fry. Heck, all my fry would have names if I were that creative.

And I don't know about your betta, but mine sure as heck know they're beautiful and colorful, and show no objections... in fact, they love to flaunt it.

That being said, I slightly agree with you about breeding for looks in the extreme... for example, my DTHM hardly moves at all because it takes him so much effort to swim with his heavy finnage. I feel really bad for him, and for this reason I've decided I only will be breeding plakats. However, I don't criticize those that breed fish with heavy finnage, because my DTHM and HMs are still happy fish and don't really mind sitting around all day being lazy just waiting for feeding time, haha.