Debate

[jollysue]

I think that catsmakemebark is fine starting this thread. She was told by at least three people to do it. She is new to the forum and has opinions based on her prior experience. This thread is a good place for her to get to know other frequenters of this Betta forum. Clearly the general Betta keeping veiw point at TFF is different from the one at other forums she has frequented.

If it is reasonable for us to ask her to be tolerant, then I think she can expect the same tolerance from us.

Honest discussions are great ways to learn if people can let their guard down and not feel like they have to defend their integrety.

Clearly catsmakemebark is reading the posts, because she read mine, which was v-e-r-y l-o-n-g.

There is something called the dialectic. It is used as a learning technique. People with very different views take different positions and struggle to understand each other. It is used in the highest education by scientists and in the law. I myself do not always change my mind after a good discussion, but they will usually make me think. But I always understand more when people are patient enough to help me understand them as well as trying to understand me. Learning is not an argumnent, but it may well be a debate.

I hope this will be accepted with grace: I would not like to be spoken to as though I were a five-year-old in day care.

 

[xostrawberryox]

You cannot critisise catsmakemebark for starting this discussion, they were advised by a moderator on someone else's thread.

However catsmakemebark, it is most certainly your wording which is getting people's backs up, my question is, is english your second language? I dont mean it nastily, its just a vibe im getting from your wording and bizarre spelling mistakes (those = thoughs)?

The way you preach that bettas NEED 10gals to themself is wrong, especially if you are going to compare it to one living in one's bathroom. A human being would be absolutely fine and healthy living in the bathroom, although it may not be idealistic for them! If you are going to be that blunt about bettas NEEDING larger tanks in captivity to be at their happiest then how about the idea that we shouldnt keep them at all? Surely if your optimum aim is your bettas supreme happiness then why do you keep one at all, afterall they must be happy in their natural environment moreso?

One last question, if your sister is possibly going to breed does this mean that for each spawn she creates will be in a 20 gallon tank, as each fish needs 10gal each?

Byeeeee x B)

 

[sparklefuzz]

My house is not nearly big enough to fit that many ten gallons but I said she would find good homes for most.

If not, then a bunch of ten gallons with dividers so they at least get filtered water.

If your sister actually does breed, she'll need to raise them for at least 3/4 months before she can find them homes, so how do you expect her to raise up to 500 fry in even 5g tanks?? Even if she only had 50, she'd struggle. I think you're being a little ideallistic.

If you want to know the people who agree with me, they are on petshub. com. If you tell them you think 1 gallon is minimum you will get yelled at....a lot. They present a lot more facts about this topic.

Actually, perusing that site, theres quite a few people who disagree with you there too. It isn't one big happy family of people keeping bettas in 10g tanks, as you make it out to be.


Why can't you accept that people have differing opinions, and move on? I think you like the argument myself... and by us replying to this topic, we're keeping your ego going.


I say we all leave this topic alone. Most people have had their say, and those who haven't are 'probably' only going to echo things already said...

 

[l.michelle]

I have had betta's that have lived to a little over 4 years in a ten gallon. A filter, heater and frequent water changes is the key for a happy betta.

To give you my side of this statement, I have had a betta live for close to 5 years. He spent his first year in my care in a 1 gallon glass bowl (before I knew anything about bettas, he was my first). Then, I put him in a ten gallon. What happened? He got depressed, and as a result, got sick. It was not the way I was caring for him, he did not like the 10 gallon. I came here, fixed his illnesses, and moved him into a new 5 gallon. He enjoyed it for maybe the first little while, then i noticed him getting depressed again. i moved him into a smaller tank, 2.5 gallons, and he loved it. Sure, he got sick but that is mostly due to his old age at that point, but then i got help from the friendly people here, and treated him (which by the way it is much easier to treat (i find) in a smaller tank. And he lived out his life happily in the smaller tank.

Every betta is different. Some like the larger tanks, some simply don't. Just as some like to have tankmates, and some really hate it. It all depends on the betta. I now have 5 bettas, 3 of which are in 2.5 gallons, and 2 are in 5 gallons. I don't see the problem with having a 2.5 gallon tank. They have lots of space to swim around in, and have their own filter and heater.

Telling people rather rudely, I must say, that what they have been doing successfully for years, and with many people on this forum for sometimes tonnes of bettas, that what they are doing is completely wrong because it is your opinion (as like the others, I have not seen any facts that you speak of) is quite uncalled for, and rather childish.

I think, in my opinion, that you have to open your mind and realize that people do and can have different ways of doing things than what you have. That perhaps you are not always right. No offence, but compared to the many people on here, you don't seem to have as much experience as them. From what I have seen and heard, wuvmybetta has a room literally shelved with bettas galore. How she does it, i have no clue, but I do know that she knows what she's doing.

It seems rather odd to me that the first thing someone new will do on a forum is begin by critisizing other peoples' methods. Truly this is not the way to go about it. If you find this forum so rude, then I ask, why are you still here? People here don't seem to take kindly to being told that what they are doing is wrong, have no facts, and just because it is your opinion, that it MUST be followed. Seems a little narrowminded.


Now, I am done my rambling. And sorry that I couldn't remember the names of the other people who have tonnes of bettas, I am fuzzy with names.

 

[three-fingers]

You cannot critisise catsmakemebark for starting this discussion, they were advised by a moderator on someone else's thread.

I never knew that, now i feel bad. Sorry catsmakemebark .

I think your views are great, keeping bettas in 10 gallons is a good thing to do .

It just vexed me that you were stating facts that simply were not true .

 

[OohFeeshy]

Just to contradict the OP's opinion about water, funnily enough my 'fancy' SD has done better than ever before in water that has been tanninated with a rooibos teabag and has comparatively high nitrates... Time will tell how he's going to fare without his beloved tannins... All mine enjoy mental stimulation from swimming around moss, the fake plants, their caves and trying to eat the snails. Currently I've got a couple in just over 1g sweet jars, not ideal (they're temporary until the new arrivals arrive and are sorted), but they certainly aren't wasting any time being depressed.

 

[guppymommy]

If you are caring for your betta to the best of your abilities, feeding, changing water as often as needed, etc. then you are doing right by it.

I know people who keep bettas in tiny jars/vases with plant roots surrounding the little guys. I don't like it, I don't approve of it, but these people are my friends and this is how they choose to keep their bettas. I tell them MY OPINION of how bettas should be kept but I don't insist or expect them to change their betta keeping just because I expressed my opinion to them. Perhaps my opinion will make them think, perhaps make them change, but if it doesn't then there is nothing more I should do (arguing will only destroy a friendship and I don't think it's worth it to lose a frienship over a betta . . . love my bettas as I do, they just aren't as good at being my friends as my human counterparts are).

My opinion is this. Keep your betta how you choose and be happy. I will keep my bettas how I choose and be happy. If my betta isn't happy, I will do everything within my power to make him happy. That is all I can do as a responsible fishkeeper and is all anyone of us should be asked to do. Everyone has different methods of keeping bettas. If it works for you, go for it, but don't expect everyone to follow your way as "standard" or "right."

 

[jollysue]

I like that. Well said.

 

[adam98150]

I wouldnt think about stuffing a betta in a tiny 5g, its cruel. Look in my sig, my bettas perfectly happy and loves to swim along side the other fish.

 

[three-fingers]

I wouldnt think about stuffing a betta in a tiny 5g, its cruel. Look in my sig, my bettas perfectly happy and loves to swim along side the other fish.

And yet other peoples bettas are perfectly happy with it. Maybe you should have said:

I wouldent think about stuffing my betta in a tiny 5g, its cruel.

 

[wuvmybetta]

I wouldnt think about stuffing a betta in a tiny 5g, its cruel. Look in my sig, my bettas perfectly happy and loves to swim along side the other fish.

for the sake of argument...I'm sure a number of people could find a thing or two wrong with your stocking choices for a 15 gallon tank. Not the best example, you make it sound as though he's cruising around in a 75 gallon . I, personally, would never expose a betta to the stress of living in a small closed in enviroment with tetras and a gourami. But you say your fish is content, and that's what matters, your opinion of whether or not your fish is happy. You see him, you know him best.

Overall, I'm very happy with the direction this thread has gone in. Everyone has kept their cool and made their points

 

[pica_nuttalli]

i know! here i was, all ready to read some good ol' betta-fighting (i knew it'd be good, wuv had been forced to chime in) and what?!? no flaming?!?

i think that a lot of good points have been made, and i was especially impressed by SPLiSH's post (pg 3, Post #46).

i would, however, like to emphasize the importance of math to this particular debate. barring the space preference, which depends upon the betta in question, you really need to look at the numbers (these are all fictive and really just place holders):

given that one male betta by himself in an unplanted tank produces 4 mL of ammonia (NH3) per day, every day...

after one day in a 1g (~4L), he'll be swimming in a .1% solution of NH3
after one day in a 10g (~40L), he'll be swimming in .01% solution of NH3, after a week he'll be in 0.07%

the 1g recieves a 100% water change every day. therefore at no point will the concentration of NH3 exceed 0.1%

the 10g recieves a 50% water change once a week and lets assume that it is fully cycled. therefore, following each water change...

after week one, he'll be living in 0.035% waste
after week two, he'll be living in 0.0525% ([0.035+0.07]/2)
after week three, he'll be living in 0.0613%
after week four, he'll be living in 0.0656%
after week five, he'll be living in 0.0678%
after week infinity, he'll be living in about .069999999999%

now, lets assume that the 10g recieves a 25% water change once a week...

week one: [0.07]*.75 = 0.0525%
week two: [0.0525+0.07]*.75 = 0.092%
week three: 0.121%
week four: 0.144%
week five: 0.160%
week infinity: .2099%

a couple of understandings can be drawn from the above.

the level of total waste in a 10g w/ 50% water changes is not that huge of an improvement over a 1g--the primary advantage is that the nitrogen cycle of a 10g is much more effective.

if your 10g is really going to be an 'improvement' in terms of waste managment, then you better be doing some significant water changes!

again, please note that these waste estimates are simply placeholders in order to show a mathematical relationship. in no way do they describe actual betta waste production or safe waste concentrations

 

[xostrawberryox]

Wow! Someone listened at school Feeling slightly confused but i think i get the general jist of it. At last someone is bringing hard facts to the 'debate'

Would it make any difference if the 10g was with filter and the 1g without filter?

The main thing is that as long as the owner is dedicated to consistent standards of water quality, health wise theres not much difference?

 

[RandomWiktor]

I *personally* think that, just by the inch per gallon rule, bettas should never be kept in less than 2.5-3g; yes, they can survive in it, but they shouldn't have to. And I *personally* do not advocate keeping them in less than a 5g tank, as they tend to be active fish (though there are exceptions) and deserve more space. If I had the space and money, my boys would each have a 10g to themselves, but in order to run the rescue, I need to make some compromises. If I can save a fish from a horrible death by neglect, disease, or culling, I see saving that fish and giving it a good quality of life in a 5g as a pretty noble cause, even if it means it can't have absolute luxury in a 10g or greater, as I can only do what is feasible. Am I a bad person for putting the effort into caring for 30 special needs, high-maintenance rescued fish because they only have 5g instead of 10g? I don't think so, personally. I'd love to have more room for my rescued parrots, but can only afford large cages and play sessions; does that mean I should have never rescued them because I can't give them a massive, zoo-quality enclosure?
Most people on this forum do what is best for their fish, or what they think is best. I'd be much more concerned about people keeping goldfish in bowls so they die of ammonia poisoning than people keeping bettas in 2.5-5g tanks. The fact of the matter is, even if it isn't ideal, it is not inflicting suffering, and is not adversely affecting the fish's health. Why not crusade against a more blatant cruelty, like dyed fish, betta fighting, tail cutting, goldfish bowls, overstocking, cycling with live fish, or wild-caught threatened species?

Overall, I don't think your opinion is all that bad... except for the fact that you are making inflammatory, overly generalized statements with no evidence to back them. Bettas are by nature a solitary species that prefers stagnant bodies of water... yet you advocate keeping them in a 30g community tank, where they are not only at hazzard for injury from other fish and exhaustion from the current, but also pose a potential threat to other fish. You talk about better water quality, and while that is generally true, I doubt that a lone betta in a 5g cleaned once weekly has worse water quality than a betta with a bunch of other fish in a filtered 10g that gets 25% weekly water changes. Water temp is more stable in larger tanks, but many of us with smaller tanks take extra cautions that actually keep the temp quite stable indeed - my room is temperature controlled to 76 degrees specifically to ensure that temps in my tanks do not change. Can't say that for the 75g, which changes by several degrees on a daily basis.
So, please don't assume that ALL larger tanks are automatically cleaner and more stable. Don't assume ALL bettas get along in community tanks. Don't assume ALL bettas can handle the current of a filter. And don't assume ALL people who keep in smaller tanks are ignorant or immoral; they are likely just doing what is best for them and their fish.

 

[starrynightxxi]

well said, Random