Cycling New Tank From Established One

[charlotte!]

I've had a 20 gal going for about a month and a half, its been cycled a couple weeks. I had problems with the fish not getting along so I'm starting a 10 gal for just guppies. In the 20 gal the filter has been running with the same media the whole time. The gravel I added a couple weeks ago and I added some plants a couple days ago. The fish have been in there not even a week (I cycled it with a dead shrimp). There are also a couple other decorations I added a couple days ago. I put the filter cartridge in the new tank (not in the filter because it wont fit) and some gravel and I'm planning on moving some plants/ decor. How long should I wait to add the guppies? Will it be cycled instantly or will I have to wait? Also about 1/2 the water is from the established tank but I don't think that makes much of a difference from what I've read. I started the 10 gal this morning

On a side note, my heater in the 20 gal will stay on for a little bit and shut off right away. It won't heat the tank, does anyone know why? I went out of town a few days and got back a about week ago but in that time the water level went lower than it was supposed to. Theres marks on the heater like it was burned but it was working fine except for yesterday. If it's broken I dont see why it turns on for a little bit.

 

[BigbruiserAl]

I spot a few things maybe you can give more detail.

A single shrimp cannot cycle a tank ready for full load of fish, soon as you put fish in the bio load will go through the roof compared to 1 shrimp.
A heater that has burns on it that wont heat a tank is classed as broke get a new one. And adding media on its own to a tank without a filter will not do much, the bacteria will die off off in a few days as they need running water through media to supply oxugen to the bacteria.

 

[orandas]

And adding media on its own to a tank without a filter will not do much, the bacteria will die off off in a few days as they need running water through media to supply oxugen to the bacteria.

?

she has "I put the filter cartridge in the new tank (not in the filter because it wont fit)"

so, so long as she has a filter to the new tank, the bacteria will eventually go back into the new filter? is that right?

 

[the_lock_man]

And adding media on its own to a tank without a filter will not do much, the bacteria will die off off in a few days as they need running water through media to supply oxugen to the bacteria.

?

she has "I put the filter cartridge in the new tank (not in the filter because it wont fit)"

so, so long as she has a filter to the new tank, the bacteria will eventually go back into the new filter? is that right?

The bacteria need water flowing across them to get oxygen. The small currents in a typical tank aren't enough, it needs to be pumped water. Therefore, just putting a piece of media in a tank with just natural currents will not give them enough oxygen, and therefore they will die off.

The bacteria will not migrate from the mature media in the tank, to the new media in the filter, in any significant quanitites.

I agree with Al that the filter is unlikely to be cycled sufficiently to process the bioload for the proposed stocking.

 

[orandas]

And adding media on its own to a tank without a filter will not do much, the bacteria will die off off in a few days as they need running water through media to supply oxugen to the bacteria.

?

she has "I put the filter cartridge in the new tank (not in the filter because it wont fit)"

so, so long as she has a filter to the new tank, the bacteria will eventually go back into the new filter? is that right?

The bacteria need water flowing across them to get oxygen. The small currents in a typical tank aren't enough, it needs to be pumped water. Therefore, just putting a piece of media in a tank with just natural currents will not give them enough oxygen, and therefore they will die off.

The bacteria will not migrate from the mature media in the tank, to the new media in the filter, in any significant quanitites.

I agree with Al that the filter is unlikely to be cycled sufficiently to process the bioload for the proposed stocking.

thanks, that cleared that up for me. it will explain why seed material is more effective placed inside the filter,than placed inside tank.

Incidently if seed material is placed directly opposite a spray bar, in the tank, it will be ok initially? but by the time they are swirled back into inlet grill/pipe and back into the filter, most will have died, insignificant amount back into the filter media. so it will kinda be pointless to place seed material inside a tank then?

 

[the_lock_man]

And adding media on its own to a tank without a filter will not do much, the bacteria will die off off in a few days as they need running water through media to supply oxugen to the bacteria.

?

she has "I put the filter cartridge in the new tank (not in the filter because it wont fit)"

so, so long as she has a filter to the new tank, the bacteria will eventually go back into the new filter? is that right?

The bacteria need water flowing across them to get oxygen. The small currents in a typical tank aren't enough, it needs to be pumped water. Therefore, just putting a piece of media in a tank with just natural currents will not give them enough oxygen, and therefore they will die off.

The bacteria will not migrate from the mature media in the tank, to the new media in the filter, in any significant quanitites.

I agree with Al that the filter is unlikely to be cycled sufficiently to process the bioload for the proposed stocking.

thanks, that cleared that up for me. it will explain why seed material is more effective placed inside the filter,than placed inside tank.

Incidently if seed material is placed directly opposite a spray bar, in the tank, it will be ok initially? but by the time they are swirled back into inlet grill/pipe and back into the filter, most will have died, insignificant amount back into the filter media. so it will kinda be pointless to place seed material inside a tank then?

Basically, yeah. The bacteria cling on really tight to the media anyway, so you still wouldn't get any significant migration.

 

[charlotte!]

I thought I've read a lot of times just putting it in the tank is enough if you have the filter. People say to put gravel and stuff from other tanks and those can't go in filters so wouldn't it be pointless? I'm really confused.
The shrimp was dead, I should have said that sorry. A huge one from the grocery store. I left it in the tank in a stocking til it was about gone.

 

[the_lock_man]

I thought I've read a lot of times just putting it in the tank is enough if you have the filter. People say to put gravel and stuff from other tanks and those can't go in filters so wouldn't it be pointless? I'm really confused.
The shrimp was dead, I should have said that sorry. A huge one from the grocery store. I left it in the tank in a stocking til it was about gone.

Yes, putting gravel and water from mature tanks into new tanks is pointless.

With dead shrimp, and similar ammonia sources, it's really difficult to control the dosage - so it's difficult to know what bioload your filter is capable of supporting when the shrimp's decomposed away.

Can you tell me what your current ammonia and nitrite levels are in the 20gal?

Edit: Just read your other thread - you state that you have no nitrate showing - this would suggest that you have minimal bacteria, you would expect to see a level of nitrate in a cycled filter.

 

[BigbruiserAl]

Just to add to the gravel topic, if the gravel was used with a under gravel filter it would be teaming with bactria and would be very good idea. normal gravel just sitting in the tank used with a normal filter or external will do very little

 

[charlotte!]

Ok so at one point ammonia went way up along with nitrates and nitrites and stayed like that for a while. A couple weeks ago, maybe a little more, the nitrates were really high. I did a big water change today, could that be why theres none? My ammonias at .25 ppm but I just tested the water I've been using (from the hose so well water) and its .25 too. I have well water, reverse osmosis water and water from the sink which goes through a softener and I have no clue which to use. Someone told me well water is the best. Whats a good product to take out ammonia?

I tried again and the cartridge kind of fits in the new filter but apparently I have bigger issues on my hands, ughhh!!! always something

and yeah my filters not under gravel so I guess that's no good either.

 

[orandas]

@ the_lock_man & BigbruiserAI
Thanks guys - i learnt something new today! Confirmed my suspicions.

 

[the_lock_man]

Ok so at one point ammonia went way up along with nitrates and nitrites and stayed like that for a while. A couple weeks ago, maybe a little more, the nitrates were really high. I did a big water change today, could that be why theres none? My ammonias at .25 ppm but I just tested the water I've been using (from the hose so well water) and its .25 too. I have well water, reverse osmosis water and water from the sink which goes through a softener and I have no clue which to use. Someone told me well water is the best. Whats a good product to take out ammonia?

I tried again and the cartridge kind of fits in the new filter but apparently I have bigger issues on my hands, ughhh!!! always something

and yeah my filters not under gravel so I guess that's no good either.

Again, if those levels stayed high for a while (and it'd be good if you could quantify "a while"), then that again suggests low bacteria - if you'd got a decent colony there, the levels would have reduced over time.

A big water change would reduce nitrates, but eliminate them entirely. If you had, say 50ppm nitrate (not an unreasonable level), then a 90% change would leave you with 5ppm - if you'd only done 75%, then you'd still have 12.5ppm.

The best thing to remove ammonia is the bacteria you should be growing in the filter. They can't tell the difference between ammonia produced by fish, and ammonia that's in the well water.

At the moment, what I'd suggest is that you test the water in both tanks daily, and be prepared to do large water changes, maybe as much as 75-90% in order to keep ammonia and nitrite as close to 0 as possible.

 

[charlotte!]

Not a long time, but a decent time so I thought it was cycling. It went up a lot and decreased over time, about a month total which i thought was normal. I didn't test everyday so I'm not really sure how long each level stayed up. Do you think it cycled and I killed off the bacteria? I don't see what went wrong.

Once I thought the tank was done I took the shrimp out and for a little over a week it had no fish in it. Could that be why? Maybe the bacteria died off? It's because I went out of town, when I left ammonia was at ~.25 ppm (this was before I was using the water with ammonia in it), nitrites 0 and nitrates at 80 ppm. I hadn't done a water change yet

 

[the_lock_man]

Not a long time, but a decent time so I thought it was cycling. It went up a lot and decreased over time, about a month total which i thought was normal. I didn't test everyday so I'm not really sure how long each level stayed up. Do you think it cycled and I killed off the bacteria? I don't see what went wrong.

Once I thought the tank was done I took the shrimp out and for a little over a week it had no fish in it. Could that be why? Maybe the bacteria died off? It's because I went out of town, when I left ammonia was at ~.25 ppm (this was before I was using the water with ammonia in it), nitrites 0 and nitrates at 80 ppm. I hadn't done a water change yet

Yes, that's it - the week with no ammonia source will have starved the bacteria, and a lot will have died off.

OK, I think it's safe to say that neither tank is cycled, so you have a choice. You can either keep all the fish in one tank, or split them as planned. You'll be cycling with fish-in anyway, so the difference is either a very big water change daily on one tank, or two big (but not as big) water changes daily on two tanks.

Have a read of this article here, it explains what you have to do to keep your fish healthy and happy. You may well find that your compatibility issues regarding your guppies were caused by the water problems you've had - by keeping up with the water changes, they may sort themselves out.

 

[charlotte!]

UUUUUGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH I didn't know that would happen!!!!!!!!!!!!! will it take a while to cycle again or will it be quicker since there's already some bacteria? Yeah I guess I might as well just move the guppies then. I think they'll be happier without the other fish. Will adding a lot of plants help at all?