Curious phenomena

[bigjohn]

Well, the scenario is this.

3ft by 15 inch tank. Lit, filtered, aerated and heated.

The fish, Shubunkin's, Golden fantail's, Black moorhead fantail's, silver minnow's.

The recent death's have been amongst the Black moorhead's and golden fantail's, now I appreciate that these are probably considered fancy goldfish, but I'm unable to work out the cause of deaths/to do anything about stopping them.

Water testing has seemed ok i.e. no nitrite/nitrate problem's, pH no higher than 8, GH/KH seem to be within parameter's. The only thing that's come to light is that phosphate level's have been high (I've normally used treated tap water, but since identifying the high phosphate level's, have used reverse osmosis/de-mineralised water to reduce the phosphate - the tap water is showing high on testing). I've now also go one of these "tea-bag" like, phosphate reducing thing's inside the filter.

The symptom's, well the fish becomes lethargic, settles on the bottom of the tank, with little or no movement. The gill movement's are either erratic (like as if the fish was gasping) or virtually imperceptible. With eventual death.

There seems to have been no discolouration, no fin damage, no evidence of parasitic infection.

The fish have been in the tank for about 2 year's, and as previously mentioned, this only seem's to be affecting the moorhead's/fantail's (we had 3 of each, and are now down to 1 golden fantail).

Oh, and after some investigation, the only thing illness wise that even seemed to come close was swimbladder problem's, but having tried a proprietary treatment, we haven't had any luck.

Maybe these type of fish are sensitive to phosphate contamination ? I just don't know.

I've bought a couple of book's etc but nothing really seem's to come close.

Any idea's and suggestions would be gratefully recieved, because apart from the staff at the "fish shop" (who seem to have an idea of what they're doing), I don't know anyone else who keep's fish.

regards

John

p.s. sorry for the long drawn out post, but inexperience means that I don't know how to explain thing's any other way.

 

[ger87410]

What are your water parameters? Have you tried taking a look at the gills?

 

[bigjohn]

By parameters, I presume that you are refering to the water quality.

Now I've just finished the test's. They are all done using individual test kit's from Hagen's nutrafin aquarium test range.

The result's are:

pH = 7.5 to 8 (the kit is a wide range kit)

Ammonia NH3/NH4 = 0 to 0.6 mg/l (the colour change was virtually imperceptible)

Nitrite NO2 = 0 mg/l (no colour change)

Nitrate NO3 = <5 mg/l (again the colour change was virtually imperceptible, which suprised me as previously it's been as high as 100 mg/l)

Phosphate PO4 = 2.5 mg/l (when the fish started showing the unusual symptom's, it was reading >5 mg/l)

GH = 140 mg/l (which, according to the literature that comes with the test kit is "moderate")

KH = > 80 mg/l (again, according to the literature, is good with excellent "buffering" capability).

Now as you can see from the test result's, it would appear that the water is in good shape. Though when the phospate appeared to be very high, I started using "reversed osmosis" water stock, as opposed to the treated tap water that I had been using - a test of the tap water showed it to be >5 mg/l. I've done water changes 3 times since finding this out (about 25 litres a time i.e. 20 to 25%).

Hence I don't understand what's wrong. The phosphate test kit info suggest's that high PO4 is indicative of over feeding. Though as I understand it, (from reading the water quality book I bought) if that was the case, then the ammonia or at least the nitrite/nitrate level's should be high (or at least up or normal readings).

I've only recently started using the hagen test's full time, as previously I'd use a testing strip from EsHA, and only test with the hagen kit if something didn't seem correct (I understand that the hagen kit's are supposed to be considerably more accurate, hence the change).

Now, all the Black moorhead's have died and all but one of the golden fantail's as well. The last of the golden fantail's is displaying symptom's that I described above. A bit "swimbladdery"?, but not like it was when I had a swimbladder problem previously and the fish responded to aquarium salt and formaldehyde based swimbladder treatment.

I think that I'll nip down and take the carbon filter element out of the filter and try some swimbladder treatment again - but I still don't think that that's causing the problem - I can't explain why?

There's still the 2 shubunkin's in the tank and 4 silver minnow's, none of which show any of the symptom's that I listed in the start of the thread.

Perhap's somebody could review my post's and tell me if I'm doing anything wrong. I'd rather not have to euthanaise the fish (while I've read the post about this, the fish book that I bought suggest's that detaining the suffering fish in a small amount of tank water then using a 9 volt battery is equally humane as using some sort of chemical/medicinal method). I don't like to think it's suffering.

Any advice/guidance is much appreciated.

regards

John

p.s. Oh and yes as per what ger87410 mentioned about looking to see if there seemed to be anything wrong with the gill's, I've spent considerable time looking at both the last living fish and checked the ones that have died, and things seem to be OK.

 

[bigjohn]

Ok, so on the off chance it is a swimbladder problem, I've just worked out that the total volume of my tank is 142.something litres (31.3 gallon's).

Bearing in mind that these are cold water fish, it's bloody mind blowing to work out that for appropriate treatment it need's 711.5 grammes of salt (that's about 1.5 lbs). So following the swimbladder treatment instructions I've just added 360 grammes today, and 8 ml's of the formaldehyde based treatment.

This is due to be followed by the other half of the salt tomorrow (using the wisdom of adding it half at a time, because it's such a large amount).

Jesus, according to the instructions, so much salt. I hope that I'm not gonna kill all the remaining fish.

Ha, maybe I could sue the treatment manufacturers if they all snuffed it.

regards

John

 

[heresmike]

That sounds like a lot of salt! The normal dosage is 1 tablespoon per 10 gallons.

 

[bigjohn]

That's what I thought, but the swimbladder treatment definitely say's 5grammes per litre of water.

My tank in 142.5 litre's (31.3 gallon's) so the maths's work's out at 712.5 grammes or nearly 3 quarters of a kilo. Then it say's about if there's a lot of salt, put it in it 2 batches half one day, and half the next. Hence 360 grammes today, with a scheduled 350 grammes tomorrow.

Even I thought it was a lot - but I've only got the treatment guide to go by. Unless you've got any other idea's please ???

regards

John

 

[andyM]

Sounds like way to much salt. I make the calculation 142.5 l / 5 = 28.5 grammes

 

[endparenthesis]

This might be a long shot, but you said you started using de-mineralized water? I've read that you don't want to use distilled water in a tank because you remove a lot of the minerals a fish would need (taking away its daily vitamin, and then some). It might be the same with RO water... I'm not sure. I believe lethargy was one of the symptoms in my reading. Just a thought.

 

[luxum]

No offense, but i have a hard time buying that less than 5ppm number for the nitrate in a tank full of goldfish. Might want to get that confirmed with another nitrate tester, particularly since you state that the reading is unusual.

 

[bigjohn]

As far as the salt is concerned, I double checked and the instructions definitely say about using 5 grammes per litre of water - I'm presuming that's only during treatment for swimbladder problems - it's a course of 4 doses i.e. day 1, day4, day 8 and day 12.

They're very specific about the salt - and say that yes it does appear to be a large amount, and that it should be added on day 1 and day 2, but not after then.

The RO water, well I wasn't using that when the fish first started showing symptom's. I only changed when the water showed a high phosphate reading (all the other test's had shown OK, and I had to ask the people at the local shop about what else may be causing the problem, and the only thing that they could suggest could be phosphate - yes i did then buy my own test kit and even pure tap water showed high in phosphate)

Also while I'm still undecided about what the illness actually is, I suppose everytime I re-read my book/the treatment instructions/websites etc etc, it's starting to look more and more like swimbladder (maybe it's my stupid head that want's it to be swimbladder, I don't know).

the tank, being a 31.3 gallon/142 litre size, now only has 7 fish in it (since the moor's and fantails started dieing). The shubunkin's, well one's about 4 to 5 inches long, ones 3 to 4 inches long, the silver minnow's are tiny and the last fantail is about 1 to 2 inches long. Not a lot of fish for that size of tank.

The hagen test kit has proved reliable in the past (it doesn't seem to have a shelf life date), and given that the tank has had 3 x25 litre water changes in the last 8 day's (plus we changed over to feeding "green food", daphnea and blood worm (mosquito larvae) month's ago, to reduce the amount of nitrite rich waste) may have some bearing on it - I'm very conscious of "vacuuming" the fish pooh from the gravel when changing water.

And yes, I was suprised by the result, and tested 3 times to check it (it's got me worried now!, I hope it's reasonably correct).

I'm also wondering if it could be a partially genetic thing + a bit of swimbladder. I've read that it's to do with the inbreeding that these types of fish have been exposed too over the last few hundred year's in China.

I'm currently thinking along these lines, because the shubunkin's and minnow's are showing absolutely no ill effect's whatsoever (though with all the salt recommended by the swimbladder treatment, it wouldn't suprise me if they did show something - I'll have to wait and see).

I'm going to test again, mid week, if thing's seem about the same I'll leave the next water change till the weekend.

do any of you think that I should be doing anything any differently ??

regards

John

 

[luxum]

the tank, being a 31.3 gallon/142 litre size, now only has 7 fish in it (since the moor's and fantails started dieing). The shubunkin's, well one's about 4 to 5 inches long, ones 3 to 4 inches long, the silver minnow's are tiny and the last fantail is about 1 to 2 inches long. Not a lot of fish for that size of tank.

I would put exactly one fancy goldfish in a 30 gallon tank. If you really want to push it with the water changes, 2. No more. These stocking levels make me even more skeptical of the nitrate reading, please get your test results confirmed. I had unmanageable nitrate levels in a 20 gallon with (2) 3" fancy goldfish. Daily changes weren't enough. This was at a higher temp than most people's tanks though.

Regarding the salt, that is probably the level for a salt bath, i don't think that much should be added to the main tank.

 

[bigjohn]

Well after everyone's comment's, I went and treble checked the instructions on the swimbladder treatment.

According to the instructions it's correct It say's if it's a large tank/lot's of salt, then put it in over 2 day's. I'm supposed to put the swimbladder treatment in on the same day as the first salt, then 4 day's later, then on day 8 and day 12. It mentions about the salt helping the treatment work more efficiently.

And as the treatment quantity is 8 millilitre's (about 1 and a half teaspoon's) that could be why i'm supposed to use so much salt.

Once it's in, then you don't add any more (suprise suprise) but you still stick to the treatment timetable.

I've done the 2nd treatment.

the fantail now spend's his/her time on it's head at the bottom of the tank. If I tap the tank, it moves. It seem's it's trying to right itself. It's more lively, but still seem's either to be not "breathing" at all or gasping.

So I'll have to just wait and see. I suppose the worst case scenario is removing it and "knocking it on the head" (obviously, not literally).

I was going to wait until saturday to test the water again (the next treatment is due on Sunday evening). If thing's are OK then as the treatment is in the water, I'll leave it, if not, then I'll have to do a 25 litre change.

Strange though. I do find this somewhat stressful!

regards

John

 

[bigjohn]

Oh well, I'll never find out why I had the problem. The last of the fantail's is dead.

Although it had been exihibiting "swimbladder" type problem's, if I tapped on the tank it would move. This morning I tried tapping on the glass - zero, so I lifted the lid, and tried a light nudge - zero.

I lifted it toward the top of the water, nothing. so he got flushed.

Shame really. I feel guilty that I wasn't doing enough to try and help it. Maybe I should have euthanaised it when it started looking ill.

The group of moorhead's/fantails lasted a couple of year's. I won't have them again. I think I'll stick to "proper" fish breed's and stay away from anything that's been gm'd over god know's how many centuries to make them more visually pleasing to the "chinese eye"!

Thanks for those of you who had suggestions as to how I might cure the problem in the first place.

regards

John