Crazy Piranha Fury guys...

[astroboy]

ok i lied, maybe i'll debate a little.

I'm going to do a proof by contradiction here, if you have half a ganglion in your head you will follow my logic if you are stupid, you will go on feeling that fish don't feel pain.

Scientists argu that since fish react in a reflexator manor to pain stimulus that they don't need the sensation that humans have as pain.
Humans also react in a reflexatory mannor to pain, if you spill coffee on someone they react nearly a full secon before they know that coffee has been spilled.
When we experience a pain stumulus we don't feel the sensation of pain for a short while, giving us time to act to escape the pain stimulus, since we escape the pain stimulus without the sensation of the pain sensation and with the aid of reflexes we must not have the pain sensation.
BUT we do have the pain sensation, so the initial postulate that fish don't feel pain because they are reflexatory animals is proven false.

If you want to disagree with me and prove yourself an idiot go right ahead, I wont stop you.

When you explore the idea of the pain sensation you realise that its not in order to get us to flee a painful situation but to teach us to avoid that situation in the first place, stick your hand in hot water and it hurts, next week you see hot water and don't stick your hand in, since fish can learn just like we can they too need the pain sensation to teach them.

BTW CFC, do you think the fishermen who kill the fish that end up in your fish paste do it in a painless manner, IME fishermen hit the fish with a spikey club and/or leave them to suffocate.

Yes, humans feel pain. Humans and fish are very different. If a human touches a hot stove, yes, you jerk away, and then feel pain a few seconds later. Yes, its to escape the danger as fast as possible. The pain receptors signal the spinal cord and then the spinal cord signals your muscles to jerk away. Meantime a signal is sent to you brain saying, "ouch that hurt".

The part responsible for perceiving this stimuli as pain is located somewhere in your cerebral cortex, which fish lack. They are brainstem dominant creatures.

This is by no means proof, but its a little reading to open your narrow mind up.
http/www.cotrout.org/do_fish_feel_pain.htm

 

[Synirr]

You know, this is somewhat off topic, but I think it would be incredibly interesting to come up with an experiment which tests a fish's capacity to feel pain; and I think I may know of a way it could be done.
(Yes, I realise that there are very valid arguments based on fish brain anatomy that suggest they can't feel pain, but scientists have just completely reevaluated old theories about the brains of birds, and it's quite possible that our current ideas about the workings of a fish brain are outdated.)

Anyway, back to the experiment idea. We already know that fish can learn (as evidenced by the show Myth Busters and by the fact that our fish learn to react positively to seeing people [think food rewards ]) Reflex reactions, to my knowledge, don't impact learning. In other words, you don't learn not to touch a hot stove from reflexively drawing your hand away from it, but you certainly learn from the pain! My idea involves applying some sort of harmless pain to a fish (a pinprick, let's say,) via an object the fish doesn't normally react to as a threat, and then seeing if the fish learns to avoid the object.

Actually, any of us who have aggressive fish have probably seen this at work. When I first bought my midas-thing, she used to get bitten constantly during mealtimes because she was bold (stupid) enough to swim right in front of my oscar's mouth... within a couple of days, though, she learned to avoid going anywhere near his front end at mealtimes . Now she is always very wary of him when he's eating.

I suppose my theory only holds true if reflex isn't involved in learning... does anyone know? My knowledge of the general workings of the brain is mediocre at best.

 

[Synirr]

The part responsible for perceiving this stimuli as pain is located somewhere in your cerebral cortex, which fish lack. They are brainstem dominant creatures.

Fish actually do have a tiny cerebral cortex... they just lack the bits that correspond to perception of pain in humans

 

[astroboy]

Ok i change my mind.
Some fish may be able to feel pain, some may not.

Even scientists don't agree with each other. I've read of scientists testifing that fish feel pain and others who claim they can't. You just need to read the facts, and use your own judgement to make a decision.
Lets leave it to the philosophers to debate whether or not they can.

Fish actually do have a tiny cerebral cortex... they just lack the bits that correspond to perception of pain in humans

haha thanks for pointing that out

 

[astroboy]

And about your experiment, you could give it a try, but it wouldn't hold any ground because theres too many variables to control for.

 

[Synirr]

And about your experiment, you could give it a try, but it wouldn't hold any ground because theres too many variables to control for.

Exactly, which is why I won't be trying it
That, and I don't want to chance inflicting pain on my poor unsuspecting oscar

I just think it would be interesting if something like what I suggested were done in a laboratory setting.
Perhaps I'll suggest it to the ichthyology professor at my local university... I'll probably be taking that class next semester, so I'll let you guys know if I'm bold enough to mention it.

Still, it holds no bearing if reflex does impact learning.

 

[OohFeeshy]

My 2p...
Surely if fish don't feel pain, then those fish who get chunks nipped out of them by other fish wouldn't try to advoid the fish who do the nipping. EG, betta in tank of neons, gets nipped, hides in pipe and runs away from the neons if they come near.

Ah, well, its early afternoon and I didn't sleep last night. Bear with me.

 

[Phantom Thief]

There is a distinct difference between survival instinct and actual pain, though, granted, the two may be interlinked in certain species.

For example, if you touch a boiling kettle, your hand instinctively pulls back, even before you actually feel the pain. That is instinct.

P.T.

 

[steelhealr]

OK..I'm disgusted. I saw a video of someone feeding what appeared to be an iridescent shark to those fish. TOTALLY UNWARRANTED. Someone's tank had a skull in it and they play hard rock music. No more links to this place please. SH

 

[steelhealr]

Hi..just some clarification which is 'sort of' mentioned here. The pain/jerk away reflex occurs at the level of the spinal cord in humans. Somatic efferent nerves register a noxious stimulus which, at the level of the spinal cord ( I believe the dorsal columns) is transmitted to neurons which immediately effect a motor response (somatic afferent). Evolution has given us this benefit to reduce the level of exposure to the noxious stimulus. Pain is later perceived, as mentioned above, in the cerebral cortex. Whether fish have this same pathway, I'll leave to the experts. I would think that most animals would need some method of pain perception to survive. I think one example (what do you think CFC)..is that fish rub against the side of a tank with certain skin diseases. SH

 

[CFC]

Another example of how fish react to pain has already been touched upon, if fish feel no pain why do they swim away when another fish nips at their fins? Personally i believe that fish do feel pain, they may not recognise why they feel pain in the same way as we do but they are aware that something is happening that they dont like the feel of.

 

[Erised]

OK..I'm disgusted. I saw a video of someone feeding what appeared to be an iridescent shark to those fish. TOTALLY UNWARRANTED. Someone's tank had a skull in it and they play hard rock music. No more links to this place please. SH

Whats wrong with links to this place? you dont have to click them. Also, I dont think playing hard rock music has anything to do with feeding feeders to your pirannahs.

True they do not need it, but far as I'm aware pirannahs in wild do not go hunting for dead shrimp, but for weak or ill fish. Exactly this is what feeder goldfish are, very weak fish. If the 2 Would share the same enviroment irl, the pirannah would probably have picked the weak goldfish over the strong healthy oscar, so whats so wrong about using feeder goldies? They dont need it, but it cant hurt to not completely whipe out their instinct because we feel its inappropiate to feed live fish.

Posting pictures of what the goldfish looks like afterwards, I think is odd. I can understand you want to show the strength of these animals and what they can do ... but if you feed a goldy for it to get eaten, whats the point of taking it out before the Pirannah has a change to do what its supposed to do?

Feeding perfectly healthy not inbred fish though, I think should not be done. In wild they would not be prefered anyway

Also, yes ... fish probably do feel pain. But if a goldy gets attacked by a shoal of pirannahs, it will die before it has a chance to realise what it feels. A hungry group of pirannahs that eat a weak fish should not take long to kill it.