Crazy Piranha Fury guys...

[steelhealr]

Hi...I don't want to seem ignorant, but, I have a question. Many of us here make it a project to recreate the biotopes that our fish exist in: African themes for cichlids, South American themes for certain tetras. I am not a piranha fan ( they are illegal in my state of New York and I wouldn't want my kids to see those pix) and I personally would never want to watch another fish tear apart another, but, if the piranha in its natural habitat are carnivores and exist on live fish, why so much anti-sentiment against them being fed that way for those who chose to keep them where it's legal? Again...I am just as disgusted as those here who have seen that link. If CFC sees this post, I'd be interested in his opinion. SH

 

[SailfinGirl]

Yeah, mine ate normal tropical flakes, no probs.

 

[CFC]

My opinion?

Well my opinion is that it is wrong to feed live fish to another fish unless it is absolutely nessesary in that the predator will starve if not given live fish, there are very few fish that are this extreem in their feeding behaviour and in my experience most predators can be weened onto frozen alternatives within a few weeks.
The fish in the photos (Serrasalmus rhombus/black pirahna) can be easily weened onto frozen foods such as pieces of fish, prawns/shrimp, mussel and cockle and a varied diet would prove better for the fish in the long run, which IMO shows that the goldfish was simply used for the viewing pleasure of the owner who wanted to see his "badass" fish tear something apart. I find the whole practise no better than any other bloodsport like dog or cock fighting and feel dismayed that people who call themselves fishkeepers would take part in such things. To cap it all off not only is the practise of feeder fish cruel it is actually a risk to the health of the predator as most comercially bought feeder fish carry a multitude of diseases and are very low in nutritional value unless they have been kept and conditioned for several weeks before being used.

 

[steelhealr]

Great reply..thanks CFC. SH

 

[pahansen]

Sorry I got onto this thread so late, but Bravo! CFC for your comment about the difference between predatory and aggressive fish. I can understand why people would not agree, but I love the behavior of predatory fish. We got an African Butterfly Fish the other weekend, and he's amazing to watch. He only eats every other night -- the rest of the time he plays dead (very convincingly!) in a corner of the tank -- but when he comes out to eat he's amazing to watch. He swims in that "shark looking for dinner" kind of way, and he's so fast!

That being said, we looked at three different LFSs before we found an ABF which would accept freeze dried food. I couldn't stand to feed live crickets to the thing, let alone little fish! And we made darned sure that we didn't get the ABF until the other fish in our tank were large enough not to look like food.

An aggressive fish I would never keep. I don't want to take any chances with the other fish I've purchased.

I would love to have pirhanas some day (very unlikely), as they are fascinating and beautiful fish, but I think I could be plenty satisfied watching them use their predatory natures on something that comes from the frozen food section of the grocery store!

-- Pamela, who will have to settle for watching the pirhana school at the local aquarium

 

[astroboy]

About the oscar and goldfish comparison.
I don't think it matters because i believe more that fish don't feel pain rather than they do. I know this is a touchy sub for some of you kids and i don't want it to turn into a debate (the pain, stimuli argument).

 

[DannyBoy17]

*hear's CFC stomping towards thread*

DB

 

[sylvia]

I thought it had been proven that fish do feel pain? Anyway, I agree entirely with what CFC said.

 

[Opcn]

I'm going to do a proof by contradiction here, if you have half a ganglion in your head you will follow my logic if you are stupid, you will go on feeling that fish don't feel pain.

Scientists argu that since fish react in a reflexator manor to pain stimulus that they don't need the sensation that humans have as pain.
Humans also react in a reflexatory mannor to pain, if you spill coffee on someone they react nearly a full secon before they know that coffee has been spilled.
When we experience a pain stumulus we don't feel the sensation of pain for a short while, giving us time to act to escape the pain stimulus, since we escape the pain stimulus without the sensation of the pain sensation and with the aid of reflexes we must not have the pain sensation.
BUT we do have the pain sensation, so the initial postulate that fish don't feel pain because they are reflexatory animals is proven false.

If you want to disagree with me and prove yourself an idiot go right ahead, I wont stop you.

When you explore the idea of the pain sensation you realise that its not in order to get us to flee a painful situation but to teach us to avoid that situation in the first place, stick your hand in hot water and it hurts, next week you see hot water and don't stick your hand in, since fish can learn just like we can they too need the pain sensation to teach them.

BTW CFC, do you think the fishermen who kill the fish that end up in your fish paste do it in a painless manner, IME fishermen hit the fish with a spikey club and/or leave them to suffocate.

 

[DannyBoy17]

I'm going to do a proof by contradiction here, if you have half a ganglion in your head you will follow my logic if you are stupid, you will go on feeling that fish don't feel pain.

Scientists argu that since fish react in a reflexator manor to pain stimulus that they don't need the sensation that humans have as pain.
Humans also react in a reflexatory mannor to pain, if you spill coffee on someone they react nearly a full secon before they know that coffee has been spilled.
When we experience a pain stumulus we don't feel the sensation of pain for a short while, giving us time to act to escape the pain stimulus, since we escape the pain stimulus without the sensation of the pain sensation and with the aid of reflexes we must not have the pain sensation.
BUT we do have the pain sensation, so the initial postulate that fish don't feel pain because they are reflexatory animals is proven false.

If you want to disagree with me and prove yourself an idiot go right ahead, I wont stop you.

When you explore the idea of the pain sensation you realise that its not in order to get us to flee a painful situation but to teach us to avoid that situation in the first place, stick your hand in hot water and it hurts, next week you see hot water and don't stick your hand in, since fish can learn just like we can they too need the pain sensation to teach them.

BTW CFC, do you think the fishermen who kill the fish that end up in your fish paste do it in a painless manner, IME fishermen hit the fish with a spikey club and/or leave them to suffocate.

Checkmate. Good point Opcn, this what I got out of that whole paragraph:

Our brain numbs out pain so that we can react faster to the pain, instead of feeling it right away, slowing down our reaction time because we are trying to "recognize" why we feel the pain ; the source.

Im hoping thats right. My brain isn't workin right now, I think Im getting sick.

DB

 

[Dwarfs]

That's wrong, I've seen LFS' feed piranhas all sorts of meaty foods, never live fish It's OK to give live food to fish that need live food, my leaf fish for example needs live fish, and when he does get some, he finishes them off in less than a second. It's almost to fast for me to see happen. Piranhas like to rip fish to pieces first, then slowly devour the shreds I sw that oscar video a few months ago, and the piranhas took at least 10 minuted to start killing it, AFTER they had been biting it in some places


Even if feeding goldfish to piranhas is wrong, I doubt anyone could change the people on that forum's opinion about it, because the majority of the members there must like to see piranhas tear fish up

 

[DannyBoy17]

Where is this video of the Oscar? Does anyone have a link? I always hear about it...Im an Oscar lover, so maybe it'd be best not to see it actually. Ignore.

DB

 

[Opcn]

Yup, thats what I said alright, but the main gist was that the same thing happens in fish that happens in us, there pain is real

 

[CFC]

BTW CFC, do you think the fishermen who kill the fish that end up in your fish paste do it in a painless manner, IME fishermen hit the fish with a spikey club and/or leave them to suffocate.

No most certainly not, the practices used in comercial fishing are nothing short of barbaric but unfortunately there is little that can or will be done about it, if the fishermen were forced to humanely dispatch every fish by hand then the price of fish would skyrocket which 99% of the general public would never want. It is a unfortunate fact that fish are seen as second class animals, if cattle farmers were to haul their herds off the pastures and throw them into containers full of water to drown before sending them to the slaughter house their would be public outrage.

 

[Puffer_freak]

Ooooooooooo!

I haven't been in chit chat for ages! HOw did I miss these typre of threads?

I can't believe that people say that fish don't feel pain! That is just stupidity. So, they don't feel pain when they're dying? I've heard that before, but I think its absoloute rubbish.

I agree with CFC, I don't mind feeder fish, as long as they die QUICKLY.

BTW, about the oscar thing, besides it having a long death, who would waste that much money, on a beautiful fish, just to see it getting eaten, and having glory on the internet (and the glory would probably only hav been on those forums)? IDIOT!