Considering Getting Corys

[frapadoodle]

I agree, just make sure the sand is washed and washed and washed, else it will cloud the water.
But my oh my does it make a difference in the way they act.

 

[livvyy]

how do i go about taking the gravel out and putting in the sand? will i have to completely empty my tank?

 

[DreamertK]

You'd have to empty the tank if you were removing the sand, but I imagine you could get some little plastic shovel or grab them with your hand and manually scoop them out without much difficulty. Its probably better you didn't empty the tank, because then air pockets will form under the sand when you put the water back in.
 
Washing the sand is serious business though. Be sure there's no debris/dust when you think you're done cleaning. That stuff can clog pipes, clog filters, cover everything (including plants) when it settles, and overall looks bad.

 

[frapadoodle]

Well I have done it both ways. It is easier when setting up a new tank.
I suggest rehoming the fish. Even in a clean unused bucket or tub. It will be stressful on the fish, but the noise of the gravel banging on the glass will be more stressful. And it shouldn't take long.
But once done and the fish settle back in, watch the corys go.

 

[JenCliBee]

Well actually it does help with filtration, but not enough to be noticed.
But I know what you mean. I think the whole thinking behind the myth, or theory, is that mature tanks tend to be more stable.
Anyway, gotta love the corys.

 
Are we talking Bio-film here or actually the very little (beneficial) bacteria that does grow on surfaces etc?....  i'm presuming you mean the actual bacteria opposed to bio film as bio film doesn't aid filtration apart from maybe producing a little ammonia to feed the needed (beneficial) bacteria.
 
I do know what you mean though, it's of very little importance as the bacteria colony is so small and insignificant, it makes no difference if it's wiped away/dies off aslong as the colony within the filter is sufficiently kept alive/fed

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To the OP though, fraps option is probably the best, move the fish to a container/bucket etc, then do a complete strip down, you can even move the filter and heater to ensure no bacteria die off and that way you can take as long as you want stripping the tank down.
 
As with anybody that strips a tank down to bare bones though, once all set back up, just monitor the parameters just to be on the safe side...overly cautious can have it's advantages sometimes lol

 

[snazy]

There is a lot more in a fish tank responsible for the water quality than just the ammonia/nitrite oxidizing bacteria. Its a whole army of goodies working in synchronization for the benefit of that little enviroment. So doing a total rescape, removing the substrate for example, causes a major disbalance you can't see or measure normally but it affects all inhabitants one way or another. Its far from a myth but I don't know why is everyone stuck into thinking there's just ammonia, nitrite and nitrate to worry about in a tank.

 

[DreamertK]

I can attest to that. Both times I removed the substrate and put it back in the tank (for cleaning) I had NH3 spikes.

 

[JenCliBee]

There is a lot more in a fish tank responsible for the water quality than just the ammonia/nitrite oxidizing bacteria. Its a whole army of goodies working in synchronization for the benefit of that little enviroment. So doing a total rescape, removing the substrate for example, causes a major disbalance you can't see or measure normally but it affects all inhabitants one way or another. Its far from a myth but I don't know why is everyone stuck into thinking there's just ammonia, nitrite and nitrate to worry about in a tank.

 

Like what Snazy?, you have me curious now..... Can you do a breakdown of these little things and what they do to help?



 

I can attest to that. Both times I removed the substrate and put it back in the tank (for cleaning) I had NH3 spikes.

That's why it's always a good reason to do tests after anything major in a tank, disturbing all the crap under the substrate can sometimes cause serious issues.

 

[snazy]

There is a lot more in a fish tank responsible for the water quality than just the ammonia/nitrite oxidizing bacteria. Its a whole army of goodies working in synchronization for the benefit of that little enviroment. So doing a total rescape, removing the substrate for example, causes a major disbalance you can't see or measure normally but it affects all inhabitants one way or another. Its far from a myth but I don't know why is everyone stuck into thinking there's just ammonia, nitrite and nitrate to worry about in a tank.

 

Like what Snazy?, you have me curious now..... Can you do a breakdown of these little things and what they do to help?



 

>I can attest to that. Both times I removed the substrate and put it back in the tank (for cleaning) I had NH3 spikes.

That's why it's always a good reason to do tests after anything major in a tank, disturbing all the crap under the substrate can sometimes cause serious issues.
 

 
Have you asked yourself why disturbing the substrate "can sometimes cause serius issues" and what keeps these nasties away from the water column and don't harm the fish if you don't poke the substrate?

 

[JenCliBee]

Have you asked yourself why disturbing the substrate "can sometimes cause serius issues" and what keeps these nasties away from the water column and don't harm the fish if you don't poke the substrate?

 
 
Because the substrate contains food waste, fish waste, organic waste etc etc.... its collected into the substrate and slowly decays but as it slowly decays it releases ammonia (at a slower rate than what would happen in the water column).... if the whole lot was displaced in one go the waste enters the water column and degrades at a faster rate than what the beneficial bacteria can handle at that particular time untill the bacteria has a sufficient colony to handle it (which would probably never happen).... it has nothing to do with nasties, it does though have everything to with with the amount of waste your filter/s can cope with in a certain given time.
 
The other side is, people that remove there substrate and clean it will never be the same as removing the substrate and replacing it with new, because the old substrate will still contain dirt/waste particles which will enter the water column either while re-adding the substrate or filling the tank with water...basically extra load that the filters wasn't already dealing with...hence you may get some spikes in ammonia untill the bacteria can deal with the extra load.... at any point though, removing and replacing/cleaning the whole substrate should be done with the fish removed...for the above reasons solely
 
That isnt what you had previously stated though, nor was it actually what i asked for an explanation on.... im still curious lol
 
Your comment....

There is a lot more in a fish tank responsible for the water quality than just the ammonia/nitrite oxidizing bacteria. Its a whole army of goodies working in synchronization for the benefit of that little enviroment.

 
You mentioned a whole army of goodies were responsible for the quality of the water.... like what?.

 

[snazy]

Have you asked yourself why disturbing the substrate "can sometimes cause serius issues" and what keeps these nasties away from the water column and don't harm the fish if you don't poke the substrate?

 
 
Because the substrate contains food waste, fish waste, organic waste etc etc.... its collected into the substrate and slowly decays but as it slowly decays it releases ammonia (at a slower rate than what would happen in the water column).... if the whole lot was displaced in one go the waste enters the water column and degrades at a faster rate than what the beneficial bacteria can handle at that particular time untill the bacteria has a sufficient colony to handle it (which would probably never happen).... it has nothing to do with nasties, it does though have everything to with with the amount of waste your filter/s can cope with in a certain given time.
 
The other side is, people that remove there substrate and clean it will never be the same as removing the substrate and replacing it with new, because the old substrate will still contain dirt/waste particles which will enter the water column either while re-adding the substrate or filling the tank with water...basically extra load that the filters wasn't already dealing with...hence you may get some spikes in ammonia untill the bacteria can deal with the extra load.... at any point though, removing and replacing/cleaning the whole substrate should be done with the fish removed...for the above reasons solely
 
That isnt what you had previously stated though, nor was it actually what i asked for an explanation on.... im still curious lol
 
Your comment....

>There is a lot more in a fish tank responsible for the water quality than just the ammonia/nitrite oxidizing bacteria. Its a whole army of goodies working in synchronization for the benefit of that little enviroment.

 
You mentioned a whole army of goodies were responsible for the quality of the water.... like what?.
 

 
Like a lot of different type of good bacteria that converts that same fish poop into ammonia and then the bacteria in the top layer of the substrate converts it bsck to nitrate. Otherwise in a non mature tank this will all happen in the water colum causing unstable conditions some fish and inverts can't handle. You would be relying that the ammonia will travel to the filter fast enough without harming the fish or inverts. The amount of ammonia/nitrites that can be harmful and cause issues can't even show up on your home test.  Each surface of the tank plays a role into the nitrogen cycle one way or another. The limitation of filters is that not enough oxygen can reach there fast enough to keep all the bactetia you need in a tank alive. Hence why trickle filters are more efficient as bio filters as they've got direct access to atmospheric oxygen. Also, dissolved organic substances play a role into keeping metals like copper safe(chelated metals)for shrimp or sensitive fish that are not used of high content of these.  And are you implying that changing the substrate to a brand new washed one is actually good?  Now you'll say that scrubbing the tank clean is good, just put the filters back on...I really have no patiece explaining.
Why can't people keep sensitive fish alive in a newly cycled tanks although there's no measurable ammonia/nitrites?
 

if the whole lot was displaced in one go the waste enters the water column and degrades at a faster rate than what the beneficial bacteria can handle at that particular time untill the bacteria has a sufficient colony to handle it (which would probably never happen).

 
"Otherwise in a non mature tank this will all happen in the water colum causing unstable conditions some fish and inverts can't handle."

 

[frapadoodle]

Wow, snazy, you have more patience than I do. I gave up trying to 'splain.

 

[JenCliBee]

Firstly i would just like to clrify that this wasnt a witch hunt, i was guenuinley interesting in something within your comments that i had never herd about before and wanted to know more, somewhere along the line you seem to have mistook it as a dig at you

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But... i will answer you below statement in section or i will confuse myself.
 
 

Like a lot of different type of good bacteria that converts that same fish poop into ammonia and then the bacteria in the top layer of the substrate converts it bsck to nitrate.

This comment is nonesnse, there is always degridation to produce the needed ammonia, decaying plants, foods, fish waste etc it also happen very very quickly not over a long period of time like a nitrogen cycle.... the moment the food is added it starts to degrade, bacteria almost instantaly starts to colonises to break down the waste of whatever type... so in thoery yes we could strip a cycled tank down to bare bones and within hours the waste will start being producing into ammonia.
 
 

Otherwise in a non mature tank this will all happen in the water colum causing unstable conditions some fish and inverts can't handle. You would be relying that the ammonia will travel to the filter fast enough without harming the fish or inverts.

 
This is actually also wrong to some degree.... this is why filters have a flow rating, a to slow a flow in a heavily stocked tank can casue the ammonia to build quicker than the filter will be able to filter it.... it has nothing to do with a filter not being able to process the amonia in different levels of the tank, there is ample amount of media in most external filters to over stock a tank probably 10x's...however if the flow isnt there, then the filter will only be doing half of the job thats needed. so.... no you wouldnt have to "rely that the ammonia will travel to the filter fast enough without harming the fish or inverts.".... becasue a sufficnt enough flow would suffice quite easily, that is the sole responsibilty of the keeper to ensure a good flow around there tank.
 
 
 
 

The amount of ammonia/nitrites that can be harmful and cause issues can't even show up on your home test.

 
Your quite right, test kits are almost uuseless full stop of correctly detecting levels..hence why they are a guide and not something to swear by (ask any aquarium based scientist or infact any plant nut, they wont even use them becasue they are so inaccurate)
 
 
 
 
 

Each surface of the tank plays a role into the nitrogen cycle one way or another.

 
Your quite right but i think your misjudging how much use they are.
 
 

The limitation of filters is that not enough oxygen can reach there fast enough to keep all the bactetia you need in a tank alive.

Have you any prof of this?.... i have never ever herd anybody, scintifically background nor a general keeper ever make such a comment. The amount of dissolved oxygen is the same in the water column as what goes through the filter, if there wasnt enough oxygen running through the water being filtered then there wouldnt be enough oxygen in the tank water.... and im very sure, fish require a far higher oxygen content than bacteria does and if the bacteria was dieing off due to lack of oxygen then im sure the fish will be showing signs of gasping surely?.
 
 

Hence why trickle filters are more efficient as bio filters as they've got direct access to atmospheric oxygen

 
Again, i would like to know where this info is based from, in thoery you argument could stand up, but to matter in regards filter to filter, i think you are again misjudging the effecivness of non trickle based filter.... send me scientific info backing this up.
 
 
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Also, dissolved organic substances play a role into keeping metals like copper safe(chelated metals)for shrimp or sensitive fish that are not used of high content of these

 
This however could be true, i would actually love to read more on this, please send your sources this way

 
 

And are you implying that changing the substrate to a brand new washed one is actually good?  Now you'll say that scrubbing the tank clean is good, just put the filters back on...I really have no patiece explaining.

 
Now your getting really ahead of yourself, i never stated this... what i stated was, if a tank was stripped to bare bones, then it's always a good idea to keep ontop of the parameters by checking them...didnt i write this further up the thread?. But.... yes you could, i think around 90% of the benificial bacteria resides in th filter, bacteria also colonises very qickly, so yes tbh, you could literally wipe down every surface, change the substrate and have a very minor rise in ammonia which the filter should/would/would probably get back to coping with within a 48hr time limit.... but i will go back to what i originally said.... when stripping a tank down to bare bones, when it's re-set up monitor the parameters

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Why can't people keep sensitive fish alive in a newly cycled tanks although there's no measurable ammonia/nitrites?

 
Becasue it usually has nothing to do with a cycled established/newly cycled tank, what these people fail to take into consideration is the other parameters which really make a differece to sensitive fish, ie...tds, ph, kh etc.... these are really what affect fish compatibilty and not the general tank itself.... if you have no reading of ammonia/nitrite and low enough nitrate readings... the an established tank does the same job as a newly cycled tank....
 
 

"Otherwise in a non mature tank this will all happen in the water colum causing unstable conditions some fish and inverts can't handle."

 
Im conpletely confused with this comment..... are you trying to say, in a 6 mnths old tank with the same fish as in a 5 year old tank, there would be more bacteria in the 5 year old tank?..... if so, the only reason there would probably be more bacteria is becasue there is a larger build up of waste.... the bacteria hoever in both filters wouldnt be that much different.... the bacteria in the substrate would probably be vastly different.... however, my point exactly, if you stripped a tank down and removed all that waste from the substrate and the substrate for new substrate, there wouldnt be any need for that bacteria to exist becasue there wouldnt be enough waste for it to sustain itself.... if anything this extra uneeded bacteria would die off producing even more ammonia... however slowly and in amounts which the filter could quickly take control of.
 
 
Not sure if that answered that last quote but thats how i took it by reading.
 
 
 
P.S, sorry for the spelling mistakes lol, im sort of inbetween stuff and havent got time to go back through it.

Wow, snazy, you have more patience than I do. I gave up trying to 'splain.

 
No, you just couldn't backup your comments

 

[snazy]

First of all, if you want scientific evidence, you should set a right example and provide some yourself for your own claims.
 

This comment is nonesnse, there is always degridation to produce the needed ammonia, decaying plants, foods, fish waste etc it also happen very very quickly not over a long period of time like a nitrogen cycle.... the moment the food is added it starts to degrade, bacteria almost instantaly starts to colonises to break down the waste of whatever type... so in thoery yes we could strip a cycled tank down to bare bones and within hours the waste will start being producing into ammonia.

 
Of course there is degradation, but it isn't just one bacteria responsible for it. There are many. There are certain types for example like Actinomycetes that are responsible for large organic compounds degradation. You want as much degradation as possible, as fast as possible, instead of the stuff growing mould around the place and spreading pathogenic organisms. Hence even why shrimp and snails are very good in a tank as they can break down the organics into smaller organics so other bacteria can degrade it further till it reaches it's final form ammonia that will feed the filter. All these processes play a role on the water column as well and availability and toxicity of other compounds like metals for example. Also of course, on the general water parameters like TDS, KH, GH, Ph, etc... So stripping the tank down and leaving just the filter bacteria, even if you keep most of the original water, will lead to water quality fluctuations that are stressful to fish and inverts.
 

This is actually also wrong to some degree.... this is why filters have a flow rating, a to slow a flow in a heavily stocked tank can casue the ammonia to build quicker than the filter will be able to filter it.... it has nothing to do with a filter not being able to process the amonia in different levels of the tank, there is ample amount of media in most external filters to over stock a tank probably 10x's...however if the flow isnt there, then the filter will only be doing half of the job thats needed. so.... no you wouldnt have to "rely that the ammonia will travel to the filter fast enough without harming the fish or inverts.".... becasue a sufficnt enough flow would suffice quite easily, that is the sole responsibilty of the keeper to ensure a good flow around there tank.

 
First of all, oxygen is hardly solubable in water. The amount of available oxygen doesn't depend on the filter only. It depends on the temperature, the surface area of the tank compared to water volume, how well agitated the surface is, or whether the tank has plants for example. If the tank is overpopulated, not necessarily overstocked, there will be more organic degradation, bio filter bacteria population, and more fish to consume this, so depending on all these factors there can be so much oxygen in the water at any given time,so it doesn't really matter that it goes through the filters, if the water isn't saturated with oxygen. Same applies for ammonia availability. In a lightly stocked tank you can have 30x flow and it still won't grow big bacterial population because there isn't ammonia enough to feed it. You said the same yourself, but you are looking at it just from a narrow point of view. Flow plays a role to deliver the chemical compounds needed for ammonia/nitrite/nitrAte conversion but if they ain't there, it just delivers water..
 
 

Have you any prof of this?.... i have never ever herd anybody, scintifically background nor a general keeper ever make such a comment. The amount of dissolved oxygen is the same in the water column as what goes through the filter, if there wasnt enough oxygen running through the water being filtered then there wouldnt be enough oxygen in the tank water.... and im very sure, fish require a far higher oxygen content than bacteria does and if the bacteria was dieing off due to lack of oxygen then im sure the fish will be showing signs of gasping surely?.

 
There's a lot of info out there about this. Research yourself. I don't have a laboratory if that's what you mean.
For example, filter media like the very famous Sera Siporax has very large surface area, so just a small amount of it is needed to biologically filter a large tank. If enough oxygen reaches is capable of reaching it, then you need a 2l with a fast pump to actually filter 400L aquarium but in reality it doesn't work like that.
 
 "1 liter sera siporax® provides as much settling area for bacteria as approximately 34 liters of ceramic filter material. Therefore 1 liter sera siporax® ensures more than 200 liters of biologically clean aquarium water. sera siporax® is an excellent choice for small filters"
 
 

Now your getting really ahead of yourself, i never stated this... what i stated was, if a tank was stripped to bare bones, then it's always a good idea to keep ontop of the parameters by checking them...didnt i write this further up the thread?. But.... yes you could, i think around 90% of the benificial bacteria resides in th filter, bacteria also colonises very qickly, so yes tbh, you could literally wipe down every surface, change the substrate and have a very minor rise in ammonia which the filter should/would/would probably get back to coping with within a 48hr time limit.... but i will go back to what i originally said.... when stripping a tank down to bare bones, when it's re-set up monitor the parameters

 
First of all how did you measure how much bacteria is in the filter and how much in the substrate/decor in each tank? Why are you advising to check the parameters if you are claiming it's all in the filters and little anywhere else? It's like worrying about causing a spike by adding 1 fish to a tank with 10 fish. A mature tank shouldn't even have a hiccup at that even with 10% loss because the 90% surviving would theoretically divide themselves and compensate for that loss and a lot more in less than 12-24 hours, which is not enough time to even think of testing or worrying the fish won't handle if what you are saying is true. Filter bacteria can double in population in a period of less than 24 hours. So if you have stripped the tank down to just leaving the cycled filters, but you experience a small spike lasting 48 hours, then theoretically you've lost way more than 90% bacteria in the first place. For example, to get 25% bacteria back to 100% functionallity needed for the amount of bioload in a tank, it will in theory take 48hours(25% bacs will become 50% in the next 24 hours, which in turn will become 100% bacs in another 24 hours)  So your statement that you can experience a 48 hours spike just proves that way more than 90% bacteria is lost by removing a healthy substrate and other decoration.
 
  

Becasue it usually has nothing to do with a cycled established/newly cycled tank, what these people fail to take into consideration is the other parameters which really make a differece to sensitive fish, ie...tds, ph, kh etc.... these are really what affect fish compatibilty and not the general tank itself.... if you have no reading of ammonia/nitrite and low enough nitrate readings... the an established tank does the same job as a newly cycled tank....

 
This is a total speculation. The advise adding sensitive fish to tanks at least 6 months old has nothing to do with the Ph, tds, kh, etc...
 

Im conpletely confused with this comment..... are you trying to say, in a 6 mnths old tank with the same fish as in a 5 year old tank, there would be more bacteria in the 5 year old tank?..... if so, the only reason there would probably be more bacteria is becasue there is a larger build up of waste.... the bacteria hoever in both filters wouldnt be that much different.... the bacteria in the substrate would probably be vastly different.... however, my point exactly, if you stripped a tank down and removed all that waste from the substrate and the substrate for new substrate, there wouldnt be any need for that bacteria to exist becasue there wouldnt be enough waste for it to sustain itself.... if anything this extra uneeded bacteria would die off producing even more ammonia... however slowly and in amounts which the filter could quickly take control of.

 
First of all, I need to know whether you are claiming whether a cycled filter on its own provides a mature enviroment or a tank that has been cycled for over 6 months. No one here tried to claim you need to wait 5 years for a tank to mature.
Stripping the tank down and claiming you don't need any of that bacteria is just totally irresponsible. As I tried to explain above it depends on the tank and setup where the bacteria has settled and even the type of bacteria, including the ammonia/nitrite bacteria types can differ from tank to tank. Waste and mulm on its own is not harmful to fish at all. I feed mulm to my fry and actually fed my shrimplets too with it. It contains very nutritious microorganisms I can't grow myself otherwise.  What's harmful, is if there isn't enough bacteria and microorganisms to degrade the waste, whether poop, degrading driftwood, leaves, etc.. to a level where it can be picked up by the ammo bacs, and instead it grows pathogenic bacteria and fungi on it. Also, not all waste is high in nitrogen compounds and it doesn't all release ammonia via additional processes.
 
If you are claiming that a sterile tank with wiped clean walls and bottom and cycled filter is better for fish due to the lack of waste, people have tried it on fry tanks and it works to an extent if you clean it several times a day, which is not practical.  But then again there is evidence that such tanks have harmful effect on fish like corydoras for example, because a bare tank, which in theory should be cleaner, tends to develop a harmful biofilm on the glass that can harm fry that are in constant contact with it, such as corydoras fry and it's recommended to keep a layer of substrate instead. These are completely different type of setups again, hence we can't generalize.
Also, those ammo bacs in the filter like a bit of waste in there to have available ammo at all time.
 
 
And I understand that this is just a discussion and there's nothing personal. I mean no hard feelings either. But I just refuse to go further. Everyone has enough information to try and research for themselves and make up their own mind. At the end, experience will teach you the hard way, no matter what you do.

 

[livvyy]

omg wow didn't know this post would get that in-depth...........
 
well to let use know i did change to a sand substrate (i left some gravel in there about 2 handfuls took the fish out but left the water (as the tanks in my room and my mum would get so p*$$ed of if did the whole water movement again....
i didn't read all that info use posted but sounds like use know ur stuff.... just different opinions on how its seen....
thanks for the help my cats love it can see they go EVERYWHERE in the tank