Confusion clear-up

[Sgooosh]

Hi, a lot of people said bettas could be with other soft water fishes, but some also say no...
i just want to know what the vast majority thinks

 

[EllRog]

They're solitary fish. You're welcome

 

[Ichthys]

Depends on the individual. Some are aggressive towards other fish, some are not. Being territorial, small tanks also tend to make them more aggressive.

 

[Uberhoust]

I have kept a single male betta in a large community tanks, no fin nippers, and no small fish. I currently have two females in a 60 gallon community tank, they occasionally flare at each other but no real stress. They both check out anything new in the tank.

 

[Byron]

I am not an aquarist who thinks it is OK to risk a fish just to prove "x" or whatever. The facts on Betta splendens.

Betta splendens seems to live solitary in its natural habitat which is still and sluggish waters, including rice paddies, swamps, roadside ditches, streams and ponds. Such an environment is not conducive to fish that require oxygenated waters so one can expect few if any non-anabantid species to live in such habitats. During the dry season, most bettas are able to bury themselves in the bottom of their dried up habitat. There, they can live in moist cavities until water once again fills the depression during a rainy period. The fish can survive even if thick, clay mud is all that is left of the water. They do not survive total drying out of the bottom (Vierke 1988). There are very few fish species, and none that are found in the same habitats, that can manage life in such conditions, which is further evidence that the B. splendens is most likely a solitary species.

All anabantids are territorial; male bettas instinctively fight each other in defending their territory. Selective breeding over many years has produced fish with a heightened sense of territory defense, which explains the common name of Siamese Fighting Fish. Fish fights for money is a "sport," if you want to use the term for such animal cruelty. This means the bettas we see in stores have an even greater propensity to literally kill each other given the chance. For a fish that instinctively lives alone, and believes it must defend its territory to survive--both traits that are programmed into the species' DNA--this aggressiveness is likely to extend to any fish that dares enter the betta's territory, which in most cases will be the tank space. And forcing the fish to "live" under such conditions is frankly inhumane.

Individual fish within a species do not always adhere to the "norm" for the species; this is true of all animals, including humans. But with fish, responsible aquarists should research the fish's behaviours, traits, and requirements, and then aim to provide accordingly. "Expectations" are as I said above programmed into the DNA, and we are not going to change them just because we may want to have a betta in the tank with "x" fish species. Sometimes the betta seems to co-operate with our experiment, but in many of these situations it may not last for long, eventually if not immediately. Fish that do succumb are likely being severely stressed, unseen to the aquarist until it is too late.

If the betta does not first attack the intruders, the intruders may go after the Betta. It is a two-way street, and in either situation it is the betta that loses in the end. Severe stress causing increased aggression, or conversely severe withdrawal from being targeted by the other fish. And physical aggression is not the only concern; fish release pheromones and allomones, chemical communication signals that other fish read, and these can promote aggression that will in time weaken the fish to the point of death. There is no reason to risk the fish in one's attempt to prove scientific understanding wrong.

 

[Ichthys]

Bettas live with other fish in nature, and we don’t keep them in such oxygen-poor environments. They're a species that has no strict territory but roams, and is only territorial towards its immediate “personal space”, wherever it happens to be at the time. So in a large enough tank they’re generally peaceful as long as other fish don’t get too close, just like in the wild.
Females are exactly the same, btw, except their aggression is usually less severe than the males.
Males and females both prefer the same solitary lifestyle (a must for males), but with enough space they’re usually peaceful towards unrelated species, as in the wild.

 

[Byron]

What is stated above about habitat and territory is to the best of my knowledge accepted by ichthyologists as fact. I should have provided the references for the habitat data, sorry about that. Here they are.

References:

Betta splendens profile on Seriously Fish.com

Hargrove, M. (1999), The Betta: an Owner's Guide to a Happy Healthy Fish, Howell Book House.

Kottelat, M. (2013) "The fishes of the inland waters of southeast Asia: a catalogue and core bibliography of the fishes known to occur in freshwaters, mangroves and estuaries," Raffles Bulletin of Zoology Supplement No. 27: 1-663.

Tan, H. H. and P. K. L. Ng (2005), "The fighting fishes (Teleostei: Osphronemidae: genus Betta) of Singapore, Malaysia and Brunei," Raffles Bulletin of Zoology, Supplement No. 13, pp. 43-99.

Tan, H. H. and P. K. L. Ng (2005), "The labyrinth fishes (Teleostei: Anabanatoidei, Channoidei) of Sumatra, Indonesia," Raffles Bulletin of Zoology, Supplement No. 13, pp. 115-138.

Vierke, J. (1988), Bettas, Gouramis, and Other Anabantoids, T.F.H. Publication, Inc.

 

[Sgooosh]

I am not an aquarist who thinks it is OK to risk a fish just to prove "x" or whatever. The facts on Betta splendens.

Betta splendens seems to live solitary in its natural habitat which is still and sluggish waters, including rice paddies, swamps, roadside ditches, streams and ponds. Such an environment is not conducive to fish that require oxygenated waters so one can expect few if any non-anabantid species to live in such habitats. During the dry season, most bettas are able to bury themselves in the bottom of their dried up habitat. There, they can live in moist cavities until water once again fills the depression during a rainy period. The fish can survive even if thick, clay mud is all that is left of the water. They do not survive total drying out of the bottom (Vierke 1988). There are very few fish species, and none that are found in the same habitats, that can manage life in such conditions, which is further evidence that the B. splendens is most likely a solitary species.

All anabantids are territorial; male bettas instinctively fight each other in defending their territory. Selective breeding over many years has produced fish with a heightened sense of territory defense, which explains the common name of Siamese Fighting Fish. Fish fights for money is a "sport," if you want to use the term for such animal cruelty. This means the bettas we see in stores have an even greater propensity to literally kill each other given the chance. For a fish that instinctively lives alone, and believes it must defend its territory to survive--both traits that are programmed into the species' DNA--this aggressiveness is likely to extend to any fish that dares enter the betta's territory, which in most cases will be the tank space. And forcing the fish to "live" under such conditions is frankly inhumane.

Individual fish within a species do not always adhere to the "norm" for the species; this is true of all animals, including humans. But with fish, responsible aquarists should research the fish's behaviours, traits, and requirements, and then aim to provide accordingly. "Expectations" are as I said above programmed into the DNA, and we are not going to change them just because we may want to have a betta in the tank with "x" fish species. Sometimes the betta seems to co-operate with our experiment, but in many of these situations it may not last for long, eventually if not immediately. Fish that do succumb are likely being severely stressed, unseen to the aquarist until it is too late.

If the betta does not first attack the intruders, the intruders may go after the Betta. It is a two-way street, and in either situation it is the betta that loses in the end. Severe stress causing increased aggression, or conversely severe withdrawal from being targeted by the other fish. And physical aggression is not the only concern; fish release pheromones and allomones, chemical communication signals that other fish read, and these can promote aggression that will in time weaken the fish to the point of death. There is no reason to risk the fish in one's attempt to prove scientific understanding wrong.

thanks for the info.
so it depends on personality rather than general additude.
ill keep that in mind when i (maybe) will get another betta
cuz i have a 75g with a strong filter and guppies

 

[Cydeth]

I think it is generally safest to say that a Betta should be kept alone, particularly males, but it really is a question of that particular fish and his personality.

Right now I've got two male Betta that have lived happily with gentle, and fast, community members that really don't mess with them for over a year each. But it doesn't always work out that well, and it's not a keeper experience thing that makes things work out.

I have kept quite a number of betta in my life and while the majority would likely of been calm enough to be in a community environment there have been others that would not.

I read somebody on this forum earlier today talking about the visual type of betta, I believe they said that veil tail were normally less aggressive... But in my experience that was not the case. I had a red and cream coloured veil tail that was quite frankly a psychopath that would go after everything and I'm convinced would not of stopped until everything was dead. He wouldn't even allow snails to move in his tank, attacking pest snails and nerites alike.

It's less a case of experience and more a case of extreme luck that allows betta to be with other fish. So I'd suggest that anybody that wanted to try it only did it if there was another tank set up to quickly remove the fish to, as you seriously may require it.

I'd also suggest that it not be tried, it's generally simply not worth the risks that are involved.