Cloudy Water

[the_lock_man]

As I understand it, and I'm sure both Byron and TTA will correct me if I'm wrong, the bacteria in an established tank are protected by a "biofilm", a protective layer of stuff that means that both chlorine and chloramine don't affect it.
 
In a new tank, such as that which Mike has, the bacteria have not yet got the protection of a biofilm, and so are vulnerable to those two chemicals. After all, they are introduced to water in order to kill bacteria.
 
In this instance, I am also with Akasha, in that I would advise Mike not to rinse in untreated tap water, at this stage. His fledgling bacteria need all the protection and nurture they can get.

 

[NickAu]

 
In this instance, I am also with Akasha, in that I would advise Mike not to rinse in untreated tap water, at this stage

As a general rule I do not allow untreated water near my tanks, If I must wash anything I only use treated or where I can water I have taken out of the tank during water change, And I never rinse sponges or media in tap water. But that's just me. If I put my hand in the tank I always wash my hands first in hot water with out any soaps then dry my hands before putting them in the tank. When done I always wash my hands with hot water and soap.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

The bacteria do live in a bio-film. It is how they attach to solid surfaces. The bacteria are not free swimming to any real extent. So they begin attaching ASAP. Once they attach, they multiply. However, while the biofilm can protect the inhabitants from some level of chloramination, antibiotics and other harmful things, it does not make them bullet proof. If you expose the biofilm to a strong enough amount for enough time, it will kill them. While one antibiotic may not harm them, another one can.
 
There is no need to rinse out the media in a tank being cycled, so there is no risk as the bacteria are initially colonizing. If your tank is cycled, the bacteria are ensconsed in the biofilm. What happens over the next few month is that all sorts of other bacteria begin building up in the biofilm as well. So the biofilm expands. And this presents one potential danger. Biofilms can increase in size by gaining area and they can increase by gaining depth (thickness). If a  biofilm grows too thick instead of spreading out, it is at risk of becoming detached or having pieces broken off by water flow. One of the benefits of bio-wheels for hosting bacteria is that the rotational motion encourages the biofilms to grow by spreading laterally rather than up which mitigates the potential shearing incidents.
 
The biofilm is not so much a protective layer as it is a giant home, The bacteria are all inside it. And there is also a layering effect. Where various types of bacteria are found within the bio-film is not random. The ammonia oxidizers are near the surface and the nitrite bacteria are in close proximity to them. deeper inside the biofilm there will eventually be denitrifiers as there will be some anaerobic regions deeper inside. Here is a good table which explains what the biofilms do. You can ignore the third column as it get more technical than we need to know.

from http/www.researchgate.net/publication/45440998_The_biofilm_matrix/file/d912f50fa50a170c50.pdf
 
The other thing to realize here is the bacterial biofilms are not limited to living in filter media. They will be found wherever in a tank they can get a constant supply of nutrients and oxygen etc. They are in the substrate, they are on the decor, they are on the live plants.
 
If you want to learn more about these biofilms this is a decent paper:
Bacterial Adhesion: Seen Any Good Biofilms Lately?
http/www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC118072/
 
Here is an interesting factoid re the nitrifying bacteria. They are not 100% attached an immobile. Some number will be motile, meaning they can move voluntarily. How many are mobile is directly related to the nitrogen content in the water. After all, it forms the base for the nitrogen cycle. When nitrogen is in good supply, the fewest numbers are motile (maybe 10%). But if nitrogen becomes scare, more of them are "born" motile because they will need try to move someplace else where there may be better conditions. The rest of them are going to go dormant if they must. Basically, in hard times some hibernate and some move off seeking better pastures. Nature is pretty clever in how it works things out.

 

[Akasha72]

thanks ... think I understood that

 

[GuppieMike]

I've done another water test as its been 24hrs since the water Change.

Ammonia 0/0.25
Nitrite 5.0ppm
Nitrate 5.0/10ppm

Now my 55ltr filter has lost all flow, i really don't understand fluval filters.

 

[Akasha72]

sorry Mike, we've kind of hyjacked your thread a little with all the chit chat
 
Not much change then today

 

[GuppieMike]

That's ok, I'm really at loss of what else to do.

 

[Akasha72]

just keep doing what you are doing. Cycling a tank can take weeks, it doesn't happen over night I'm afraid

 

[TwoTankAmin]

I jumped into this thread late and did not read it all thoroughly. I just read it all now. Phew some not quite right info and not accurate enough reporting by you Mike. So let me start with this. Fish food is a bad way to cycle a tank. In fact even the better foods to use are not a good way to cycle a tank- ie piece or raw shrimp or fish.
 
The whole key to a successful cycle, with or without fish, is to control how much ammonia goes into a tank. There is no way to do this with foods or with fish, although one can control how many and what size fish go in which determines the rate of ammonia creation.
 
Next, iIam going yo let folks in on a little secret. I probably cycled my first 50 -60 tanks using regular household ammonia with surfactants. I did also run carbon and I did change water during the process, And when I was done, I did a huge wc. It always worked for me. There is a preety small amount of surfactant in ammonia. And my dosing was drops going in either daily or every few days. Think about how many drops there are in a gallon or a litre. Between the wcs and the carbon and the low level of surfactants involved I felt they were not a danger despite what I had read everywhere. As far as I am concerned i was right. So one does have the option to do this if they use carbon and you do a bit of a water change until you start to see nitrites. I understand perfectly if folks want to disagree here and I suggest if you want to do this, you do so at your own risk.
 
As for what is going on in your tank Mike, its hard to know because I would need to see your test readings day by day in order and know what you added to the tank. We have no clue how much ammoina what you added should have produced. Ans when your kit says 5 ppm of nitrite it is maxed out and that means your nitrite could be way higher, the only way to know if to do diluted testing.
 
Both nitrite and ammonia can have adverse effects on the desired bacteria at certain levels. For total ammonia on an API kits the red line be about 6.4 ppm and for niteite on their kit it would be at 16.4 ppm. If your kit wont read above 5.0, then to know how much nitrite you have, you have to do diluted testing.
 
If you add actual ammonia to a tank' you know exactly how many ppm went in and what readings to expect. If you use ammonia and follow the cycling article here, you cannot overdose ammonia which means you cannot cross the red lines and you do not need to bother with diluted testing or about killing your cycle. That article is based on one having complete control over ammonia additions and knowing exactly what levels you want to see to know when to act next to add ammonia.
 
I did not write instructions for cycling by adding organic matter which would decay and make ammonia. It is not a method I advise not which I see used much due to its being so inaccurate, uncontrolled and messy. I believe this is causing all your woes here.
 
The reason I need to see day by day accounting of what went into the tank and what the test results for ammonia and nitrite were is because cycling is a process. It follows the smae order in every tank, only the time it takes may vary. And it works the same in a 5 gallon and a 500 gallon tank. So to have a good idea where one may be in the process requires we know what has happened so far. Knowing a tank has 5 ppm of nitrite does not tell us if nitrite is rising or going down. Not knowing how much ammonia has been created/added means we also cannot figure out how high the nitrite might get.
 
I think you have two options here, find ammonia you can/will use and start over fishless or else start over another way. The other way is to plant you tank well and then let the plants establish for about two weeks. Then go buy some Tetra Safe Start. Do a big water change right before lights out and after they are off, add the SafeStart. The next day go get some of your fish late in the day and put them into the tank.You can turn the lights back on after the fish settle in or else the next day put them back on for their regular photo-period. You want to give the bacteria about a day to get to places where there will be little or no light (into the filter media, the substrate etc.). Things should be pretty safe for them and you only need to check ammonia. If you do not see that, you don't have to worry about nitrite. You can go get some more of your fish and add them the next day. if you do see any ammonia it should be very very little and it should vanish fast. You should check nitrite then as well. If you see that, it too would be very low and vanish fast as well. And then you can add some more fish. Normally I would tell you that you can fully stock this way in one go, but I want to be certain you succeed and going slower guarantees that.
 
No matter which way you think you want to go, keep posting your progress and what you are doing and ask questions. Byron can help you with plants. If you are willing to have enough of them and the right kinds, you can eliminate the Safe Start and do what is called a "silent cycle". But you will have to add fish a bit slower that way to be safe.

 

[Akasha72]

I just want to speak a little in my defence here TTA. I suggested adding fish food because Mike couldn't get hold of any household ammonia. It was a suggestion off the top of my head when no other options were there.
 
It's not the best way to cycle a tank but it was the only option available at the time.
 
I'll bow out now and leave this to others to sort out 

 

[GuppieMike]

Thanks for all the information, alot to take in there. I haven't added any food since the last water change.

There has been six plants in the tank from when I first set up the tank, i wouldn't be able to tell you which ones they however.

It seems from the very start of getting fish I've had nothing but problems and its getting very frustrating. Makes me want to give up but i don't want, i just want my fish healthy.

 

[Ch4rlie]

There has been six plants in the tank from when I first set up the tank, i wouldn't be able to tell you which ones they however.

 
Maybe if you start a new thread with the pictures of your plants, we can help identify what plants you have
 
 

It seems from the very start of getting fish I've had nothing but problems and its getting very frustrating. Makes me want to give up but i don't want, i just want my fish healthy.

 
This unfortunately does seem to happen and once all your little issues with the tank are sorted it will be enjoyable and seeing your fish happy and healthy is its own reward, lovely to see them swimming about.
 
So, do keep it up and don't give up, soon you'll learn more interesting things about this rewarding hobby

 

[Byron]

I would suggest a new thread.  This one is now to four pages, and for those of us who are active in more than a couple threads, it can be confusing to respond to a question without reading the entire thread again, and to be honest that gets frustrating.  I would start a new thread about cycling/planting, include a photo of the tank so we can see the plants, and we can go from there.
 
TTA referred to silent cycling, and that is what I've done for more than 15 years now.  I have never deliberately "cycled" a tank, and I have never seen ammonia or nitrite above zero, ever.  Yes, it needs special focus to be effective, but it couldn't be easier and I would be glad to explain in detail.  But I need to see the tank/plants.
 
Byron.

 

[GuppieMike]

I discovered I done something wrong with my filter which is why the results could have been going weird.

I've now sorted it and done another test with great results.

Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrite 0ppm
Nitrate 5.0/10ppm

Is this safe to put fish back in?

 

[Byron]

I discovered I done something wrong with my filter which is why the results could have been going weird.

I've now sorted it and done another test with great results.

Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrite 0ppm
Nitrate 5.0/10ppm

Is this safe to put fish back in?

 
I'm puzzled about the filter...but if those are current readings, wait until you have the same (meaning, zero ammonia and nitrite) for several consecutive days.