Cloudy Water

[Akasha72]

 

[fluttermoth]

Thank you for agreeing to disagree so politely, guys
 
I think, in this case, I have to side with Akasha, and advise not to wash filter media under the tap.
 
While Byron may well be right, and that it wouldn't kill a significant proportion of the bacteria, it could be a risk, and not all fishkeepers have Byron's experience to notice, and know what to do, if things did go wrong.

 

[Akasha72]

no problem fluttermoth. We're all adults here

 

[Byron]

Thank you for agreeing to disagree so politely, guys

 
I think, in this case, I have to side with Akasha, and advise not to wash filter media under the tap.
 
While Byron may well be right, and that it wouldn't kill a significant proportion of the bacteria, it could be a risk, and not all fishkeepers have Byron's experience to notice, and know what to do, if things did go wrong.

 
Thanks.  Let me just say that there is no harm in being overly cautious, and sometimes I go this route with advice when the member may not have the level of experience/knowledge.  
 
But at the same time, this is a forum to disseminate advice and the scientific evidence that may prove or disprove long-held "beliefs" should be stated.  I have been a member of other forums where this was not encouraged, and it usually shows in the membership.  That is why I joined this forum.
 
There was a day when everyone believed the earth was flat; some still do (check out the "Flat Earth Society" sometime).  And it used to be believed (and was Christian dogma) that the earth was the centre of the universe, not the sun.  And all life on earth was created simultaneous; Darwin suggested this was impossible, and today with DNA we know absolutely he was right.  With scientific discovery we advance, or should.  Here too.

 
Byron.

 

[fluttermoth]

But at the same time, this is a forum to disseminate advice and the scientific evidence that may prove or disprove long-held "beliefs" should be stated.  I have been a member of other forums where this was not encouraged, and it usually shows in the membership.  That is why I joined this forum.
 
There was a day when everyone believed the earth was flat; some still do (check out the "Flat Earth Society" sometime).  And it used to be believed (and was Christian dogma) that the earth was the centre of the universe, not the sun.  And all life on earth was created simultaneous; Darwin suggested this was impossible, and today with DNA we know absolutely he was right.  With scientific discovery we advance, or should.  Here too.

 
Byron.

Oh, I do so agree

 

[Akasha72]

I agree too. This is why I enjoy healthy discussions (provided things don't start to turn nasty, at that point I walk away) There is always something new to learn in this hobby and like Byron - it's the reason I came back to this forum. What I couldn't stand on other forums was one or two people demanding that things were done as they said without question.
 
My mind isn't built for science though. My mind is more practical and works better using my common sense. Common sense to me says "don't risk washing that media in tap water .. it's really not worth the life of your fishes". Those with a scientific mind, such as Byron, will find the evidence to say common sense should shut the heck up. So we evolve ...
 
I'm still not going to risk my media though ... common sense brain says go away science, I don't trust you 

 

 

[GuppieMike]

Test results

Ammonia 0.25
Nitrite 5.0ppm
Nitrate 40ppm

Why has my nitrate gone up again?

 

[Akasha72]

you could try a water change and see if you can zero the readings. Keep chucking in the food and then test again in 24 hours. It'll be interesting to see what the ammonia and nitrite show then. 
 
I'm not sure why it's gone up to be honest. There's bound to be ups and downs though in a cycling tank. Be patient and give it a bit more time

 

[Ch4rlie]

Nitrates go up during a cycle, when ammonia has been consumed by bacteria this turns to nitrite, that nitrite in turn gets consumed by a different type of bacteria and becomes nitrate.
 
In a cycling or indeed a fully cycled tank, nitrate will always go higher, its the water changes that helps to control nitrate levels, one thing that also helps nitrate to stay low is plants.
 
Also, the API chart shows nitrite at max of 5ppm on the card, that makes you think nitrite is not being consumed to nitrate, really, the nitrite is likely to be higher than 5ppm so you cannot see the changes occuring.

 

[Akasha72]

if you look back on yesterday stats Ch4rlie the nitrite was at 2ppm, now it's gone back up to 5ppm ... I think Mike is getting them mixed up maybe?

 

[Ch4rlie]

Exactly the same applies to nitrite, ammonia is consumed and becomes nitrite by relevant bacteria.
 
As long as there is ammonia in the tank, its going to be converted to nitrite so therfore the level of nitrite is going to rise until there is sufficient bacteria to catch up on consuimng the ammonia and nitrite present in water column.
 
Of course this continues until there is no ammonia or when the cycle is successfully completed.
 
So it does makes sense nitrite and nitrate is going up during the first early parts of a fishless cycle. A good sign that the right bacterias are forming a colony to deal with the ammonia and nitrite, the best is when levels starts to drop below 5ppm, then you begin to have a better idea of whats going on.

 

[GuppieMike]

I made sure i didn't mIx them up, I done a water change and these are the results.

Ammonia 0.25
Nitrite 5.0ppm
Nitrate 40/80ppm

 

[Akasha72]

that's odd. How much water did you change? The stats should have gone down with a water change not stayed the same. I'm confused now

 

[TwoTankAmin]

I would be happy to provide folks with links to the scientific research that supports what Byron has said about rinsing bio-media in tap water. However let me quote from a PhD. thesis:

The primary objective of this research was to develop, fabricate and evaluate microelectrodes to evaluate nitrification within chloraminated drinking water system biofilm, and to determine the effects of phosphate on nitrifying bacteria biofilm. Chlorine microelectrodes for measuring monochloramine and phosphate microelectrodes for detecting phosphate ions in the biological sample (i.e. biofilms, aggregates) were developed, characterized and applied for in-situ environmental analyses. Both microelectrodes showed excellent selectivity toward target constituents and were successfully applied.

Monochloramine penetrated fully into nitrifying biofilms within 24 hours when fed at a 4:1 Cl2:N ratio, showing a cessation of aerobic activity via DO penetration following application of monochloramine. However, monochloramine penetration did not necessarily equate to a loss in viability, and the presence of excess ammonia in the water system prevented microbial inactivation. Biofilm recovery occurred when  disinfection stopped. Monochloramine showed greater penetration compared to chlorine. Monochloramine penetrated into the biofilm surface layer 49 times faster than chlorine within the nitrifying biofilm and 39 times faster in the multi-species biofilm than did chlorine.

from https/etd.ohiolink.edu/rws_etd/document/get/ucin1258489526/inline
 
Given the residual levels of chloramine or chlorine that are in one's tap water, combined with how little time the media will be rinsed and then with how diluted any chlorine still in the media is when returned to the filter and circulated into the tank, there is pretty much no danger. And if one is changing water, the dechlor going into the tank would handle the minute amount anyway.
 
The danger would if you filled a container with chloraminated tap and then let the media soak in it for many hours or overnight because you forgot about it. But then I wonder what shape the tank will be in with no filter running for that long. If there is any potential danger it might be to the fish, but I doubt that as well.
 
The key to all this is the bio-film in which the bacteria live and the low level of ammonia that is always in a tank (it wont show up on out kits but it is there.
 
I can also tell you I used to get fish from a well known breeder in the Chicago area, He told me he never used dechlor. I was getting corys from him.
 
Now despite all of this, I would still agree with one thing. For most people it is better to be safe than sorry. So there is no reason must clean their media in tap, it is perfectly fine to use tank water or dechlored tap. That way one can be almost 100% sure nothing can go wrong.

 

[Akasha72]

okay ... so question then. I used to rinse my external canister (just the empty 'bucket', not the trays containing the media) under running tap water to rinse out any bits of gritty sand that makes the trays hard to put back. But I noticed after doing this I'd always gets a small reading for ammonia for a day or so. For this reason I stopped doing it and I now pour in some old tank water instead and just swill it around, pour away and repeat until all the tiny sand particles have gone before putting the trays back.
 
If the tap water is fine for washing media why did I find a problem with washing the 'bucket' (I call it that, I mean just the empty canister) under tap water. Is this because of the bio-film you mention?