Clever video about Reefing. A chuckle or two..🐠

[PheonixKingZ]

i never said to go as low as the "first picture"
are you saying that you can't create a sleek tank without pouring thousands and thousands into super high-tech features?
ok, though, i'll try to never participate in discussion about saltwater on this forum again, since i have no experience
edit: this forum is turning more and more aggressive rather than calm discussion every day

I don’t think you realize how much a reef tank costs to keep. You don’t have to pour “thousands and thousands of dollars” into a setup, and still make it look nice. But a DIY stand? No.

Stands that come with the tank are usually already predrilled to perfection, so you don’t have to worry about misaligning your overflow pipes. They also look 10x better.

ok, though, i'll try to never participate in discussion about saltwater on this forum again, since i have no experience

This is probably best. Don’t try to give out advice if you have no experience on the subject matter.

edit: this forum is turning more and more aggressive rather than calm discussion every day

This is because people with no experience on the subject matter try to “help” the new person, which leads to more issues. Look around on the forum. There are lots of people that still need help, that don’t involve saltwater.

 

[FF_Member146894]

But a DIY stand? No.

Stands that come with the tank are usually already predrilled to perfection, so you don’t have to worry about misaligning your overflow pipes. They also look 10x better.

informing someone about the option to build their own stand has nothing to do with the specifics of keeping saltwater fish, but ok
i can also see that you've clearly mastered the art of saltwater keeping, so i'll agree that i have no right to question or discuss your vast expertise

 

[PheonixKingZ]

informing someone about the option to build their own stand has nothing to do with the specifics of keeping saltwater fish, but ok
i can also see that you've clearly mastered the art of saltwater keeping, so i'll agree that i have no right to question or discuss your vast expertise

I’m not a master of anything. I just know that you should get what you will be happy with at the end of the day. If you’re happy with a painted 2x4 stand, then by all means make that. No one is stopping you.

 

[FF_Member146894]

If you’re happy with a painted 2x4 stand

...you do realize that you can decorate a DIY stand and make it look almost identical to a store-bought stand, right?

 

[PheonixKingZ]

...you do realize that you can decorate a DIY stand and make it look almost identical to a store-bought stand, right?

No, I don’t realize.

 

[Donya]

This reply isn't a response to any one person; more a comment on the general tone this thread has taken on.

The difficulty of marine is not in how many power outlets or how many thousands of dollars of equipment you need. It's in managing the ecology of the system and learning how to read it to know what it needs. If you don't have that under control, no amount of expensive equipment will save your tank. And if you do have it under control, you don't need to be rich to do a nice reef tank.

Let me count the electrical cords on my current nano reef tank...heater, canister filter doubling as pump, and a light. That would be three. Four I guess if I count the backup air pump that triggers in the event of a power outage. Strikes me that's the same number I would have on a freshwater tank. If it was a bigger tank I'd maybe have double, but I'd probably have double on a similar FW system (2 HOBs is common). Granted I don't do SPS, but many people keep softie/LPS and that's still a reef and I've traded out many a frag over the years from corals I grew out. In the past I also had more equipment on this particular tank. I had an auto-top off, extra circulation pump or two, two different fixtures, and for around 3 years I went all in for the bluetooth & wifi equipment from expensive brands. That last part I found to be an expensive waste of money that lasted 1 year over warranty and then broke in unfixable ways. I also found that journey into the high end to be completely unnecessary for what I was ultimately doing with the tank; the only real benefit I derived from the automation was being able to travel for a week here or there. Expensive automation can also still fail in bad ways, like an auto-top-off getting stuck due to a critter getting somewhere it shouldn't and then overflowing the tank with freshwater - so don't think that just because you can watch your tank from the other side of the world that it will be fine while you're gone. My longest-lasting, most reliable pieces of equipment have been the most basic. I'm not a huge fan of T5 fixtures due to the heat and weird laws in some places about how to dispose of the bulbs, but now that I live in a cooler climate I would consider going back to them at some point.

I'm not saying everyone should go bargain basement with their setup, but I don't like seeing threads try to portray marine as having some sort of one true way that requires the most high tech stuff on the market. There are many flavors of reef tank. DIY is also a huge part of many excellent saltwater systems. It's not for everyone but neither is just about anything in aquarium keeping, fw or sw.

 

[PheonixKingZ]

This reply isn't a response to any one person; more a comment on the general tone this thread has taken on.

The difficulty of marine is not in how many power outlets or how many thousands of dollars of equipment you need. It's in managing the ecology of the system and learning how to read it to know what it needs. If you don't have that under control, no amount of expensive equipment will save your tank. And if you do have it under control, you don't need to be rich to do a nice reef tank.

Let me count the electrical cords on my current nano reef tank...heater, canister filter doubling as pump, and a light. That would be three. Four I guess if I count the backup air pump that triggers in the event of a power outage. Strikes me that's the same number I would have on a freshwater tank. If it was a bigger tank I'd maybe have double, but I'd probably have double on a similar FW system (2 HOBs is common). Granted I don't do SPS, but many people keep softie/LPS and that's still a reef and I've traded out many a frag over the years from corals I grew out. In the past I also had more equipment on this particular tank. I had an auto-top off, extra circulation pump or two, two different fixtures, and for around 3 years I went all in for the bluetooth & wifi equipment from expensive brands. That last part I found to be an expensive waste of money that lasted 1 year over warranty and then broke in unfixable ways. I also found that journey into the high end to be completely unnecessary for what I was ultimately doing with the tank; the only real benefit I derived from the automation was being able to travel for a week here or there. Expensive automation can also still fail in bad ways, like an auto-top-off getting stuck due to a critter getting somewhere it shouldn't and then overflowing the tank with freshwater - so don't think that just because you can watch your tank from the other side of the world that it will be fine while you're gone. My longest-lasting, most reliable pieces of equipment have been the most basic. I'm not a huge fan of T5 fixtures due to the heat and weird laws in some places about how to dispose of the bulbs, but now that I live in a cooler climate I would consider going back to them at some point.

I'm not saying everyone should go bargain basement with their setup, but I don't like seeing threads try to portray marine as having some sort of one true way that requires the most high tech stuff on the market. There are many flavors of reef tank. DIY is also a huge part of many excellent saltwater systems. It's not for everyone but neither is just about anything in aquarium keeping, fw or sw.

You don’t “need” all of that stuff, but it sure makes your life a WHOLE lot easier. Especially if you work every day of the week. After coming home from a long day at work, the last thing you want to do is test your water and see if you need to add more chemicals to your reef. With the combined power of Apex and DHL, you can find out everything you need from a quick push on your phone.

 

[Donya]

You don’t “need” all of that stuff, but it sure makes your life a WHOLE lot easier. Especially if you work every day of the week. After coming home from a long day at work, the last thing you want to do is test your water and see if you need to add more chemicals to your reef. With the combined power of Apex and DHL, you can find out everything you need from a quick push on your phone.

If you need to "add more chemicals" to a reef all of a sudden, the problem likely was afoot days prior.

Don't assume that what works for YOU and your unique situation is what everyone else needs. Your preferences are yours and other peoples' are theirs. The measurement of success in reef keeping is animal health and in some cases propagation, not how much money you spent and how much technology you have access to. If you achieve great animal welfare and propagation with expensive stuff, great - but respect the fact that many people do it without that.

 

[PheonixKingZ]

If you need to "add more chemicals" to a reef all of a sudden, the problem likely was afoot days prior.

Don't assume that what works for YOU and your unique situation is what everyone else needs. Your preferences are yours and other peoples' are theirs. The measurement of success in reef keeping is animal health and in some cases propagation, not how much money you spent and how much technology you have access to. If you achieve great animal welfare and propagation with expensive stuff, great - but respect the fact that many people do it without that.

I do respect that people can run a successful reef without all the “expensive stuff”. But for a beginner who has little to absolutely no experience? Some of this stuff can make reefing a whole lot easier and more pleasurable.

 

[Bruce Leyland-Jones]

But for a beginner who has little to absolutely no experience? Some of this stuff can make reefing a whole lot easier and more pleasurable.

That would clearly have to be a very tech-savvy and wealthy beginner.

 

[Fishmanic]

@PheonixKingZ
How much do you have invested in your SW tank, fish, lights, corals and other equipment? What size tank is it?

 

[PheonixKingZ]

@PheonixKingZ
How much do you have invested in your SW tank, fish, lights, corals and other equipment? What size tank is it?

I would estimate I’ve spent around $2.4K. It’s a 29 gallon tank.

 

[imw]

Having kept a number of S/W tanks in the past, for me the expense and (my need) to buy the next best thing (skimmer- lights, ect) and associated electric costs and salt costs, I closed the tank down.

It is entirely possible to run one on a budget, given the right care an attention, but I would suggest a good degree of knowledge would be needed.

ATB

 

[xxBarneyxx]

Sure you can setup a “low budget” reef, but the difference is extremely clear:

Sorry I love your tank but you don't need any of that stuff to get a beautiful reef tank. In fact I would say that in a lot of situations "too much kit" makes things more difficult. More below...

But a DIY stand? No.

Why? A well built DIY stand will almost always be better than any store bought stand. You can build to spec, you don't have to try and fit your equipment around your stand, you can build your stand around your equipment.

Having used both, DIY stands where a LOT more accessible and useful than any prebuilt stand I used.

You can create a beautiful reef tank with just:
Tank
Powerhead(s)
Heater
Light
Salt, test kits, RO/DI water
Careful selection of stock (most important part)
Lots of hard work.

You don't need a sump, you don't need dosing pumps, you don't even need a skimmer. A reef tank that is lightly stocked with fish, using a decent quality salt, with regular water changing/manual top ups and selecting suitable corals is very doable.

You have to make sure you have good quality salt and do enough water changes to replenish anything that is getting used and remove nutrients. But if you have a light fish load and don't cram the tank with SPS corals you can do just fine. The important part is not letting nutrient levels get high and keeping your calc/mag stable. Regular water changes with a good brand of salt in a lightly stocked (fish) tank will do that just fine.

The biggest issue with reef tanks is normally Phosphates and nitrates. If it's lightly stocked and you do a decent amount of water changes then you don't need anything else to deal with them.

A sump helps as it gives space for equipment and more water=more stable but I have run softie/LPS tanks without.

A skimmer is great for nutrient export but again I have run reef tanks without them.

A refugium/algae scrubber are IMO even better for nutrient export than a skimmer and are cheaper to set up as well (can literally use a cheap HOB filter with a light).

All the bluetooth/wifi/computers/sensors doesn't actually do anything to make your tank "better". It may arguably make it more stable by giving you easier access to water parameters but it's not doing anything that the right test kits wouldn't do.

The example you gave for remote accessing your tank and adjusting flow for example. In theory, sure sounds great. In practice if your having to mess about adjusting your flow when your not even there then your tank is not set up correctly anyway and you are doing it wrong. If you tank is correctly setup and stable then you shouldn't have to be messing with stuff like that "on the fly".

The only exception to that I would say is temperature controllers. Having lost a lot of livestock to a faulty heater I consider these a must have. You only need something simple and reliable though.

Pretty much every other bit of kit is just about making things easier/quicker/prettier. If you aren't doing the basics right all the equipment in the world is not going to help you. In some cases it might end up masking the issues. For example you could get away with overstocking or overfeeding with a big skimmer attached. However a better approach would be to not be overstocked or overfed in the first place.

Even things like Sumps, skimmers, phosphate reactors, calcium reactors, refugiums, etc can be DIY, often with stuff that most experienced fishkeepers already have to hand. Being expensive doesn't make it better, prettier maybe, but not better.

The only exception would maybe be SPS heavy tanks where you need you nutrient removal to be as overkill as possible and want to encourage growth with dosing.

 

[Donya]

Since Phoenix shared his expenditures, I'll also give a price breakdown of my current softie/LPS reef 20gal equipment with some explanation. This is sure to be more detail than anyone wants but I had to figure it out item by item, so may as well list it all.

Current functioning equipment
Tank stand	$100​	basic painted wood prefab, 5 years old.
20 gal high tank	$50​	generic plastic rim tank; either 5 years old or more like 15 years old (I have two that are very hard to tell apart, one really old one newer)
glass hood	$20​	generic tank lid, 7+ years old
Basic reef LED fixture (not good for SPS but great for most LPSs/softies)	$150​	manually controlled, 6-7 years old at this point
Canister filter	$120​	Relatively new but my previous one was 5+ years old before the motor eventually had issues.
Backup air pump	$20​
RODI unit + TDS meter	$90​
Basic glass heater	$40​	the thermostat is not accurate but it works with an offset. I think it was actually cheaper but don't remember.
Powerhead	$60​	not using it now, but used it for several years in the same tank and still works so still counting it in costs.
Total	$650​

Failed or unused equipment
Programmable reef LED	$250​	Lasted barely over 2 years then failed in a bizarre way that stressed my corals and fish. It still turns on/off and just looks a little oddly dim, but it now wreaks havoc with algal blooms and animal stress wherever I put it.
Wifi programmable reef LED (different brand from above)	$300​	Lasted 2.5 years then anemones and corals inexplicably got stressed during daytime before the fixture finally died flashing on/off in a rapid strobe. Stress reactions stopped as soon as the light was gone.
Auto-top-off unit	$150​	Still technically "working" but requires more effort to clean and keep working than just doing the top-ups manually. Manually doesn't risk overflowing the tank with freshwater or waking me up in the middle of the night with an alarm.
Fancy heater with supposedly really accurate thermostat and overheat detection/protection	$80​	Nearly cooked my tank within a few months. I'm lucky I was home and noticed stressed animals as the temp was going over 90F.
Total	$780​

In this tank, a lot of my current corals are either years old from frag swaps or were things I got in exchange for trading out things I'd propagated. The live rock is a similar situation since I got a few really nice pieces years back and now colonize my own. Livestock and rock from a store would likely be a few hundred (those being one of the big price point differences between marine and fw). So, I'm going to guess $1k for dry+wet costs to duplicate everything from scratch.

I'm sad to say I actually spent more in fancier stuff that broke than on what I'm currently using, most of which was actually purchased before the fancier items. I do sincerely hope that I was just on an unlucky streak and that my experiences are uncommon, but I'm not too optimistic about that. I've talked to quite a few other hobbyists who upgraded things every 1-2 years to have the newest and best and therefore never see the real lifespan of equipment - they bin it or trade out before then. LEDs do degrade over time, but dropping $250+ every couple of years is a nontrivial expense, particularly given how mine went bad. Some hobbyists also might be temped to tell me "oh you just got too cheap of a wifi LED, that's why it broke!" - sure, I could have spent $500 or even more...but I have seen people complain of the exact same short lifespan and weird failures for the expensive ones in reviews. When I've had extremely basic things break, it typically hasn't been as crazy as what I've seen with the more expensive lights in particular. If a really simple manual T5 fixture fails, it usually blinks or just won't turn on; I've never had one mysteriously stress animals while wondering what's wrong with it - and often it's a bad bulb, not the whole fixture (so less to the landfill). Some of the risks like the heater cooking things also apply to cheap equipment too; you can be safer with a thermostat-controlled outlet, but...I haven't been overly impressed with the reliability of those either.

Anyway...longevity and equipment failure issues associated with high-end equipment are often completely ignored in discussions like these about why one might choose the basic and DIY vs. going all out on fancy things. Again, I'm not saying people shouldn't go all out with fancy things; it can be fun and very useful at times. But there are also definite negatives too that have little to do with how easy it is for newcomers.